I just popped in here to say Thx to all the good people out there and on this forum that stood up for peace and love by demonstrating on the 15th! We where 75.000 people demonstrating in sweden against the terrible war that is about to burst out. Me myself was in the middle of one of the largest in sweden, in the center of Stockholm. It was a great spirit among people! We are all united around the world and we can show them that we dont accept war and hate!

Keep fightning for peace!

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I say, let's make Trance, not war

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Originally posted by Izzy i respect people who voice their opinion, i hate people who do it ignorantly. its alright to disagree with someone, but to make it a personal thing deserives no merit the front banner is completely missing the issue and the back banner is more personal attacks on bush, completely uncalled for.

actually, i agree with you that the banner in the background is silly. bush is a butch? what is that supposed to mean?

but the first banner? "Iraqi Childrean Ask: what have we done?" hit's the issue right on the nose. millions of innocent people stand to lose their lives in a war on iraq, a large proportion of them children, who have absolutely no say in what their govt does. This is one of the main moral reasons for the antiwar movement, that you cannot attack a country for the actions of it's leader. And this applies even more strongly in a country where political dissent is not tolerated such as iraq.

At least in canada or the US, we can protest, we have free votes, freedom of speech. We can in some way be considered culpable for our nations actions. however, the vast majority of iraqis have no say in the countries foreign policy, and it is these individuals who would lose their lives in great numbers in an american led attack.

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Originally posted by JohnSmith actually, i agree with you that the banner in the background is silly. bush is a butch? what is that supposed to mean? but the first banner? "Iraqi Childrean Ask: what have we done?" hit's the issue right on the nose. millions of innocent people stand to lose their lives in a war on iraq, a large proportion of them children, who have absolutely no say in what their govt does. This is one of the main moral reasons for the antiwar movement, that you cannot attack a country for the actions of it's leader. And this applies even more strongly in a country where political dissent is not tolerated such as iraq. At least in canada or the US, we can protest, we have free votes, freedom of speech. We can in some way be considered culpable for our nations actions. however, the vast majority of iraqis have no say in the countries foreign policy, and it is these individuals who would lose their lives in great numbers in an american led attack.

well what i meant with that banner is that it could be used for proponents of war. those same children could well be asking what have they done to deserve a leader such as saddam to rule over them. those same "millions" of civilian deaths could easily be blamed on saddam (through his non 100% cooperation with the UN and inhumane treatment of his civilians) and not the US or Bush

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If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

i suppose. i'm not saying saddamn is a nice guy or anything. but, i don't think an attack by an american led force is the way to help iraqi people. how would be helping by bombing the country? destroying already scant sources of clean water, reliable power? destroying an already devastated nation will lead to a massive humanitarian crisis, that much is sure.

more importantly, even years after the bombing, i don't think iraqi civillians will be any better off. especially considering the depleted uranium munitions that the US is still using.

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go lefties go!!

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c o n : f u s e d

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Originally posted by Eugene I say, let's make Trance, not war

Trance brings peace !

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Attacking Iraq will only push the societal infrastructure back into primitive functioning. How, by going to war, will the people of Iraq 'Trust" the US government with intilling a new government after thve seen these very people destroy thier nation with their very own eyes. Not only that, i also think the current ideology espoused upon the majority of the population defracts from the proposed "democracy" that would be enforced. The population of Iraq cannot simply move from a saddam ruled state to a free democratic nation filled with Shiite muslims. It doesnt happen over night. With Afghanistan, it is different becuase it was only 5 years in which the talian ruled for... people did not like their life styles becuase it was so different from before. That is why Afghnistan is accepted their freedom so freely.... becuase they knew how it felt.

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-MARCO V

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Attacking Iraq will only push the societal infrastructure back into primitive functioning. How, by going to war, will the people of Iraq 'Trust" the US government with intilling a new government after thve seen these very people destroy thier nation with their very own eyes. Not only that, i also think the current ideology espoused upon the majority of the population defracts from the proposed "democracy" that would be enforced. The population of Iraq cannot simply move from a saddam ruled state to a free democratic nation filled with Shiite muslims. It doesnt happen over night. With Afghanistan, it is different becuase it was only 5 years in which the talian ruled for... people did not like their life styles becuase it was so different from before. That is why Afghnistan is accepted their freedom so freely.... becuase they knew how it felt.

Ya but such a move to democracy is possible in a fanatical country where the people beleive their King to be a God. Have no democratic notions, ideals, or any other conceptions of tangible democracy in thier 2000+ year history, and are willing to die to the last man in every effort to defend their "God". Right a democracy can happen in a palce like this. And well it did, Japan. But on the same note you are trying to tell me a nation filled with "Shiite muslims" and "current ideology espoused upon the majorty of the population" can not accomplish the same leap?

By god! Call me irrational!

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Originally posted by Yoepus Ya but such a move to democracy is possible in a fanatical country where the people beleive their King to be a God. Have no democratic notions, ideals, or any other conceptions of tangible democracy in thier 2000+ year history, and are willing to die to the last man in every effort to defend their "God". Right a democracy can happen in a palce like this. And well it did, Japan. But on the same note you are trying to tell me a nation filled with "Shiite muslims" and "current ideology espoused upon the majorty of the population" can not accomplish the same leap? By god! Call me irrational!

We're all forgetting, Iraq already IS a democracy ... Sadam did receive a 100% vote back into office

Next year he's probably gonna get 110%

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Originally posted by Yoepus Ya but such a move to democracy is possible in a fanatical country where the people beleive their King to be a God. Have no democratic notions, ideals, or any other conceptions of tangible democracy in thier 2000+ year history, and are willing to die to the last man in every effort to defend their "God". Right a democracy can happen in a palce like this. And well it did, Japan. But on the same note you are trying to tell me a nation filled with "Shiite muslims" and "current ideology espoused upon the majorty of the population" can not accomplish the same leap? By god! Call me irrational!

There is a major difference between the way that Japanese society funtioned, their ideological stance, and religious beleifs, compared to modern day Iraq and the viscious ruler enforces what power he has.

You cant compare two different nations in two different times in order to understand a shift in the national politcal spectrum. I have yet to find a legitamate example that parrallels in similarity with the country at hand.

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"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

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Ya but such a move to democracy is possible in a fanatical country where the people beleive their King to be a God. Have no democratic notions, ideals, or any other conceptions of tangible democracy in thier 2000+ year history, and are willing to die to the last man in every effort to defend their "God". Right a democracy can happen in a palce like this. And well it did, Japan. But on the same note you are trying to tell me a nation filled with "Shiite muslims" and "current ideology espoused upon the majorty of the population" can not accomplish the same leap?

One simply cannot compare Iraq to Japan, post-1868 and post-1945. I don't know specifically which era Yoepus is referring to but I think he was thinking post-WWII. Japan did have a democratic society before WWII, a parliamentary system based on the Prussian model from the constitution drawn in 1889 (21 years after the start of the Meiji government era, and considering the history leading up to it, to have a constitution in 21 coming from the conditions existing previously is very fast reform). Though the government was still more authoritarian than those in the Occident, nonetheless a national assembly based on a general vote had been in existence for over 40 years. It might even surprise people that Japan did indeed hold elections in 1942, during the war, as opposed to the US, which did hold elections during the war. Even though technically Iraq is a democratic state, the freedoms that the Iraqi general public have as opposed to the Japanese general public had in the first half of the 20th century; for example, pretty much only the Communist party was barred from existence in the 1920's. The society itself was quite open; commercialism was starting to boom, and the political press laws were pretty relaxed, unless one openly criticized the Emperor. The Japanese as a people are very closeknit, indeed the Japanese word for government (I forget what it is right now, sorry) includes the word "family" in it; and also, one's loyalty and duty to the emperor and the country had been ingrained in the general populace's mind from early on, through the education system. So therefore it was relatively easy for the US to come in and rebuild Japan post-WWII, because the materials and tools were there ready to be used.

I don't think this is case with Iraq. You have three different groups who don't like each other very much and each probably has their own agenda as well. The US would have a very difficult job establish a truly effective democratic form of government which has the interests of the Iraqi peoples at heart.