Become a part of the TranceAddict community!Frequently Asked Questions - Please read this if you haven'tSearch the forums
TranceAddict Forums > Local Scene Info / Discussion / EDM Event Listings > Australia > Post whores, upgrade you user status by placing useless junk in this thread
Pages (858): « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 [71] 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Share
Author
Thread    Post A Reply
Fraggle
trancEaddict Neverland



Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Sydney, AUSTRALIA

thread


___________________
Peace 'n Love! • Mikey • Sydney, Australia.

Old Post Sep-20-2002 16:11  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for Fraggle Click here to Send Fraggle a Private Message Visit Fraggle's homepage! Add Fraggle to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Fraggle
trancEaddict Neverland



Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Sydney, AUSTRALIA

!


___________________
Peace 'n Love! • Mikey • Sydney, Australia.

Old Post Sep-20-2002 16:12  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for Fraggle Click here to Send Fraggle a Private Message Visit Fraggle's homepage! Add Fraggle to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Fraggle
trancEaddict Neverland



Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Sydney, AUSTRALIA


___________________
Peace 'n Love! • Mikey • Sydney, Australia.

Old Post Sep-20-2002 16:12  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for Fraggle Click here to Send Fraggle a Private Message Visit Fraggle's homepage! Add Fraggle to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
escee
q1dm6



Registered: Apr 2002
Location: Perth, Australia

HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

i wonder how big a thread can get before it starts shitting it self, ive heard around 100 pages, but, that could be wrong. WE HAVE TO FIND OUT

Old Post Sep-20-2002 17:00  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for escee Click here to Send escee a Private Message Add escee to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
dr me
Apathy



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Perth, Australia

i've got nothing to say but this is my contribution for the day.


___________________
huh?

Old Post Sep-20-2002 18:23  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for dr me Click here to Send dr me a Private Message Add dr me to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
fieroavian
Mentally Sick



Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Netherworld
ohhhh no my page 57

bleh, you snooze, you lose.

Old Post Sep-20-2002 19:29  Canada
Click Here to See the Profile for fieroavian Click here to Send fieroavian a Private Message Visit fieroavian's homepage! Add fieroavian to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
fieroavian
Mentally Sick



Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Netherworld

nooo i ain't got nuthin betta to say either but i hafta regain my territory anyway

Old Post Sep-20-2002 19:36  Canada
Click Here to See the Profile for fieroavian Click here to Send fieroavian a Private Message Visit fieroavian's homepage! Add fieroavian to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
fieroavian
Mentally Sick



Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Netherworld

if they could make useless posts like "whatchu listenin to" in the Music Discussion forum, i don't see why we can't do it here.

last 3 songs played --
Aria - Dido (Armin van Buuren's Universal Religion Remix)
Cosmic Gate ft. Jan Johnston - Raging (Storm)
Beatpushers - Murto

Old Post Sep-20-2002 19:42  Canada
Click Here to See the Profile for fieroavian Click here to Send fieroavian a Private Message Visit fieroavian's homepage! Add fieroavian to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
Renegade
____________/



Registered: May 2001
Location: Prague, Czech Republic

Free-market capitalilsm a zero sum game.

Discuss.

Old Post Sep-20-2002 19:57  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for Renegade Click here to Send Renegade a Private Message Add Renegade to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
dr me
Apathy



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Perth, Australia

macroeconomically it's probably zero sum. someone's gotta loose.

this is a stupid topic, hows about whats a good movie along the lines of shawshank redemption, braveheart?


___________________
huh?

Old Post Sep-20-2002 20:03  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for dr me Click here to Send dr me a Private Message Add dr me to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
dr me
Apathy



Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Perth, Australia

right now i'm listening to:

sasha - airdrawndagger.....mmmmmmm, chilled prog


___________________
huh?

Old Post Sep-20-2002 20:06  Australia
Click Here to See the Profile for dr me Click here to Send dr me a Private Message Add dr me to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message
fieroavian
Mentally Sick



Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Netherworld

quote:
Originally posted by Renegade
Free-market capitalilsm a zero sum game.

Discuss.


OK.

In one form or another, a zero-sum equation is probably the most common systematic argument against a really free market of voluntary exchange. The essential basis of this argument, whatever its particular focus, is a 'zero-sum game' of wealth, in which everyone cuts pieces of a 'wealth pie,' if you will, which can only be sliced so many ways and is only so large. According to this, any addition to the amount of wealth must have been balanced by its removal from somewhere else. The additions and subtractions add up to consistent amount. Wealth may not be created, only redistributed, the gain and loss adding up to zero.

If one believes this, it is perfectly understandable to object to anyone being richer than someone else (since they have necessarily appropriated more than their 'fair share'), or to think the wealthier western world has to be exploiting the rest of the world since it has a greater piece of the pie, or that profit is unfair because it must come at the expense of someone else even in a voluntary exchange, or to believe in the use of force to 'redress the balance.' These things follow from the zero-sum game of wealth if it is accurate. However, the worst of this phenomenon of belief may be that in some cases, these conclusions themselves are desired, and the zero-sum economics have been discovered as a justification. I believe that to have been the case with many communist economists such as Marx, who really wanted to be justified to hate capitalists, since they already did. Before discussing any specifics, it is worth noting initially that this claim is characteristic of pessimism, and while dealing with it, it is wise to keep in mind that the proclamation of this kind of limit may have less to do with a realistic perception of the world than a pessimistic desire for such a limit to exist.

Capitalism in a free market is not a zero-sum game, and exchange is not limited to zero-sum equations, for multiple reasons. First, wealth is subjective in amount and kind according to individual understandings of value. There cannot be a fixed amount of wealth in the world if the wealth that matters to each person is subjectively different. Certainly, physical commodities and resources like gold and wood and food and stone are not overly subjective in the way we experience them, and they are not interchangeable depending on who you are. But their value to each of us does vary, and it is subjective, depending on who we are. The same is true of the products produced from them, and their various applications. There is also great variation in the worth of what is physical depending on what we have the knowledge to accomplish. To experienced workers today, iron ore means tools and girders to build into the sky. But to our distant ancestors, iron ore was just another rock. In the hands of a skilled doctor today a knife can save a life, but once people only knew that knives were good for cutting up food and each other. Before papyrus and sheepskin became the first kinds of paper and made literature and accounting possible, they were just reeds and a way to keep warm. Obviously the vast difference in value has come from the subjective realm of mental capital. Much of what is often called culture is mental capital, such as art and science, and even every idea or concept, with perhaps a value which is even more subjective. Individual human capacities and abilities count as well, and those are certainly not measurable statistically.

All that matters is that someone values a thing, and then it is real wealth to them. Of course, some people believe that capital which is not physical is not 'real.' But for proof that ideas and concepts can have as much, or much more, real impact than quantities of physical resources, consider the difference that knowledge and technique makes in efficiency, and in what can be accomplished with resources. Once all people spent virtually every waking moment trying to feed and protect themselves with the tools ready at hand. They had all the same basic physical resources. The only important difference is mental; certainly there were fewer people alive to build wealth in the past than there are people building wealth of all kinds now, but exceedingly more value per person is being created today, thanks to the accumulated exchange of mental capital and mental resources. If we were instead billions of cave-dwellers, we would probably still measure wealth in having enough to eat and a fire for warmth. The main reason that some still do is that the profits of unhindered mental and material production and trade have been denied them through the true oppression and exploitation of modern-day societies, which are not free at all.

Another reason the zero-sum equation does not apply is that even according to a given standard of wealth, wealth can be created. Look about you at everything that exists now, all the technology, art, literature, and the material farms and cities, from homes and skyscrapers to gardens and fields. Once people lived in only natural shelter, hunting and gathering, and had none of this. So where did it all come from, if wealth cannot be created? Gains can be made. Effort can accomplish and what is accomplished can accumulate.

Labor is often considered to be the basis of wealth according to zero-sum economics. If all labor is equal in value objectively, if the products produced by less labor are exchanged for what required more hours of labor to make, then that profit is exploitation. In the eyes of many people this has condemned all capitalists as exploiters of their employees, and millions have been killed in the world out of revenge and jealousy, in the name of the 'fairness' of this theory. But it is utterly wrong. It could only be right if value were completely objective, and if the contribution of every person in work is always exactly identical. Labor was closer to commonality when more people did very similar work, such as agricultural farm labor. But labor is in fact highly dissimilar, especially today. It includes inherent and learned talents, experience, individual flair, and many other subjective qualities. It is also worth more or less in subjective value according to the circumstances of the world around the worker. Labor in the strictest physical sense is also a far less significant kind of capital than mental capital, which means the difference between making piles out of sand and making glass out of it, as well as the difference between making glass out of sand and making silicon chips.

The specific justification for a zero-sum game of wealth is often the connection of wealth to a limited amount of resources in the world, a zero-sum game of resources. This claim may be extended to anything from arable land to food production to energy production, to any or all natural resources used by mankind. If this is true, the very use of these limited resources for profit is exploitation of other people. But in practice and in history, every time a limit is found, someone will invent a way to surpass it as long as people are allowed to achieve freely. For example, if the ability to grow food based on available land really stayed constant, this planet could never support billions of people as it does now, with irrigation, hydroponics, and other modern farming techniques effectively creating more cultivated land. It would seem there are always better methods for accomplishment. There are always ways of converting one substance into another more useful one, and even ways of exchanging energy for matter and matter for energy. The only real scientific limits that apparently exist involve the amounts of matter and energy in the universe, and these are hardly limits that we can relate to as human beings.

quote:
Quoted from Richard Feynman:


"[T]he idea of distributing everything evenly is based on a theory that there’s only X amount of stuff in the world, that somehow we took it away from the poorer countries in the first place, and therefore we should give it back to them. But this theory doesn’t take into account the real reason for the differences between countries - that is, the development of new techniques for growing food, the development of machinery to grow food and do other things, and the fact that all this machinery requires the concentration of capital. It isn’t the stuff, but the power to make the stuff, that is important. But I realize now that these people were not in science; they didn’t understand it. They didn’t understand technology; they didn’t understand their time."


One popular conviction is that the third world has been exploited by the rest of the world through the pillaging of its resources. There is some truth to this - but not due to a zero-sum of resources. Particularly under the application of the fascism of the past - mercantilism, colonialism, trade monopolies, tariffs, and so on - people in the third world were exploited through force, and their economic progress was set back. The chief means of their exploitation had little to do with shipping more substance out of these lands than was sent back; actually these people were not allowed to innovate and improve using mental capital, and profit accordingly. For example, in India under British colonial occupation, the most weighty leverage for exploitation was in only allowing the Indians to sell raw materials such as indigo dye to the British, prohibiting them from the more profitable work such as producing and dying clothing to sell. This was reserved for British monopolies, which sold finished goods back to the Indians. Even today international trade 'management' interferes using force, preventing some people from prospering even if their own government will let them alone. But this has nothing to do with voluntary exchange. It is economic fascism and tyranny, not simply the use of resources in a free market. Within a free market of individuals, people from any land will always be able to accomplish and prosper far more than those bound by artificial limits.

In a free market, evenly distributing what resources already exist or what is created is both impossible and undesirable. It does not matter that different definitions of capital belong to people in uneven amounts. In fact, this is quite natural because people are different in their abilities and interests. What matters is that in a free market, each person is more likely to achieve his own goals than in any other kind of economy - which includes greater average prosperity as well as relative riches in the hands of those who have made this their goal and achieved it.

Old Post Sep-20-2002 20:42  Canada
Click Here to See the Profile for fieroavian Click here to Send fieroavian a Private Message Visit fieroavian's homepage! Add fieroavian to your buddy list Report this Post Reply w/Quote Edit/Delete Message

TranceAddict Forums > Local Scene Info / Discussion / EDM Event Listings > Australia > Post whores, upgrade you user status by placing useless junk in this thread
Post New Thread    Post A Reply

Pages (858): « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 [71] 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 »  
Last Thread   Next Thread
Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackSome track a friend needs help IDing [2002] [17]

Click here to listen to the sample!Pause playbackChus & Ceballos - Iberican Sound (Original Mix) [2002]

Show Printable Version | Subscribe to this Thread
Forum Jump:

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:17.

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
[IMG] code is ON
 
Search this Thread:

 
Contact Us - return to tranceaddict

Powered by: Trance Music & vBulletin Forums
Copyright ©2000-2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Privacy Statement / DMCA
Support TA!