quote:

Originally posted by Tranceporter99 Its honorable how much you trust the police and government, but don't you want independence? The ability to choose whether you have a gun or not?

I want the ability to choose my own personal safety over what other people think is their god-given right. Lucky for us, we live in a country where it's possible to make that choice. And I'm not some uneducated hippy tree hugger who would never touch a gun in her life. Ive held a gun, and I've shot a gun, and I know how to take care of a gun. I just dont want your dumb asses to have guns.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Borrowed from another forum: "The irony of a well-armed militia as a natural counter-balance to a government gone awry is that the government has gone awry, lied to the people and manufactured consent for actions that have disempowered and impoverished the people, and this government was supported by the NRA crowd."

Thank yooooooooooooou!!! Jesus, isnt that a critical point?

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quote:

Originally posted by Ang ' ela_ie I want the ability to choose my own personal safety over what other people think is their god-given right. Lucky for us, we live in a country where it's possible to make that choice. And I'm not some uneducated hippy tree hugger who would never touch a gun in her life. Ive held a gun, and I've shot a gun, and I know how to take care of a gun. I just dont want your dumb asses to have guns.

Unfortunately the absence of guns does not equate to personal saftey. There was war, murder, violence, genocide, etc long before guns were invented and as long as there are humans on this planet it would continue even if all the guns magically disappeared. People who want to commit acts of violence will do so no matter if they have a gun or not. What a gun in the hands of a law abiding citizen does is level the playing field and allows you the opportunity to defend yourself against an armed, violent criminal.

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Originally posted by XaNaX What a gun in the hands of a law abiding citizen does is level the playing field and allows you the opportunity to defend yourself against an armed, violent criminal.

No, the gun in the hand of the criminal is my problem. Id rather have people coming at me with knives and baseball bats, thankyouverymuch.

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Furthermore,

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Originally posted by XaNaX What a gun in the hands of a law abiding citizen does is ....

...make that law abiding citizen more able to commit a crime. Just because youre completely sane when you buy a gun doesnt mean your girlfriend wont cheat on you one day and make you feel like you need to go on a shooting spree. How many people, do you think, have been shot by a gun that was purchased SOLEY for the intent of self-defense? If the answer is more than zero, it's too many.

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quote:

Originally posted by Ang ' ela_ie No, the gun in the hand of the criminal is my problem. Id rather have people coming at me with knives and baseball bats, thankyouverymuch.

This is the problem, there is no way to realistically completely restrict possession of guns. Lets say you pass a law that makes guns illegal, all the law abiding citizens would turn in their guns because they follow laws. However by definition a criminal does not follow laws so they would have no problem illegally possessing a gun or acquiring a gun through illegal means. Now you have criminals in possession of guns while people who follow laws are disarmed. Not a good situation in my opinion.

As a woman, if a 6' 2", 250lbs man bent on attacking you broke into your house and was armed with a knife would you rather confront him armed with a knife or a gun?

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Originally posted by XaNaX As a woman, if a 6' 2", 250lbs man bent on attacking you broke into your house and was armed with a knife would you rather confront him armed with a knife or a gun?

Id rather go at him with my trusty baseball bat.

And your "criminal mind" argument is solved by a little bit of effort in the government and law enforcement. In the words of Jed Bartlett, "we need to get the guns!"

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quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov "The irony of a well-armed militia as a natural counter-balance to a government gone awry is that the government has gone awry, lied to the people and manufactured consent for actions that have disempowered and impoverished the people, and this government was supported by the NRA crowd."

That's one hell of a good fucking point.

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Originally posted by Ang ' ela_ie Furthermore, ...make that law abiding citizen more able to commit a crime. Just because youre completely sane when you buy a gun doesnt mean your girlfriend wont cheat on you one day and make you feel like you need to go on a shooting spree. How many people, do you think, have been shot by a gun that was purchased SOLEY for the intent of self-defense? If the answer is more than zero, it's too many.

Unfortunately this argument is based on a logical fallacy. Ownership of a gun makes you no more able or likely to commit a crime than if you don't own one. How many people have been killed by an angry spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend with a kitchen knife, rope, poison, a car, etc? Should all of those things be banned as well because they have the potential for harming someone? Because the purchaser, while sane at the time of purchase, may at some point in the future snap and use them to harm someone?

I agree that gun violence and gun crime is a tragedy, but unfortunately it is a stituation where once guns were invented Pandora's Box was opened and no matter how much we would like to stuff everything back in and close the box we can't.

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Originally posted by Ang ' ela_ie Id rather go at him with my trusty baseball bat.

Obviously I wish you luck if you ever find yourself in that situation, although I'm afraid things are not likely to turn out as well as you think they will.

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Originally posted by Ang ' ela_ie And your "criminal mind" argument is solved by a little bit of effort in the government and law enforcement. In the words of Jed Bartlett, "we need to get the guns!"

Unfortunately this is not true. As long as there has been recorded history governments have been attempting to get rid of criminals and they have not been successful yet as far as I can tell.

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Originally posted by Alex Ya, and believe it or not it has a lot to do with which country occupies the other. The USA have never been all that great at being an occupation force since WWII, (IE: Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq). It's not their fault, it's an impossible situation given the USA considers human rights important and doesn't simply exterminate millions of people in order to take full control of a country, like many other nations on this earth would if it meant victory. I can assure you that if China ever tried to occupy Taiwan for instance, and guerilla warfare broke out, there would be a nasty response from the chinese in the form of many thousands (millions?) of deaths of any "suspected" militants. Where as with the USA, if they just went in and started executing civilians in the street just because they THOUGHT they were rebels, en mass, there would be an uproar internationaly and the USA's reputation would be forever tarnished.

Exactly.

If you want to gain full control over a resistant country, you have to be brutal, which means disregarding the laws of war and not hesitating to use collective punishment.

Enter a village and take a couple of unarmed women into the town center and shoot them in the head to show that you mean business. Then round up thirty or forty other women along with their kids and kill five of them each time any of the villagers attack you.

Forced submission in an occupation certainly isn't impossible, it just means being willing to do dirty, morally repugnant stuff.

It's the truth, sadly, when China invaded Tibet they forced Tibetans to hold guns to members of their families heads and pull the trigger.

Call the Americans all you want, but they are not out in the streets of Iraq commiting atrocities like that.

Not that I'm in favor of the war, nor am I downplaying the widespread damage and chaos it caused the Iraqi people or anything.

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Back on topic though...

If the American government wanted to turn the country into a dictatorship, there would be very little the people could do unless they realised well in advance what was going on.

Dictatorships spring up as the result of a massive crisis or failure on the behalf of the government. Ignorance is a factor too, while the American population largely believes they are the "most free" country of all, they'd probably be shocked if they took the time to read some of the lousy legislation that has been passed to "protect" America.

I hope Obama sets that damn Patriot Act on fire and takes a big dump on media censorship. Actually, get George Carlin to do the dumping, it would be more ironic.

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quote:

Originally posted by Ang ' ela_ie How many people, do you think, have been shot by a gun that was purchased SOLEY for the intent of self-defense? If the answer is more than zero, it's too many.

Do you realize how absurd this sounds? Do you apply that standard to everything, or just things that you personally don't like?

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"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul