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Originally posted by DaveSaenz I don't know why you guys seem to have it in for CNN, but it's really one of the more "fair & balanced" American TV news outlets (as opposed to you know who hehe). You can accuse it of having "American bias" but in that same regard, the CBC has "Canadian bias," and the BBC has "British bias."

You know what ... I find that most people who have a problem with CNN don't actually have a problem with CNN. I surf many news channels daily, and I find that CNN is no different from any other news channel with the exception that it does not contain regional/local news reports that those other channels have. Perfectly understandable when one takes into consideration that CNN is probably the most global news network in the world. As a matter of fact, as a subscriber to CNN international rather than CNN US, I find that CNN reports and updates stories far quicker than bbc or reuters ever does. It appears that CNN is simply an easy scapegoat with high visibility therefore it takes much criticism. I'll never forget the time when somebody posted an article from a site with the headline "news you won't find on CNN" and I had read that same exact article from CNN hours before

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Originally posted by Illusion It's not just islam I'm against, it's all religions. But I just find it amusing that these things still occur in the Information age. I mean what kind of a sadist mutilates her own infant son? But one thing some Persians have against Islam and Arabs in particular is their attacks on our country and culture 1400 years ago. They destroyed our very identity and injected their fithy blood into us. But that was 1400 years ago. 25 years ago our country was taken hostage again. Not exactly by Arabs but Arab-lovers, so same thing. Now it's reached a point where not even the policeforce backs them up. They have recruited people from Palastine and Iraq and trained them to attack demonstrators in the streets in the name of Allah. I've had friends come back from Iran and tell me about it. They slash chests open with Blades. Pull women out of their cars, rape and beat them up. We even have Iraqis holding high posts in the government. 25 years ago we had the fifth largest Army on earth and one of the fastest growing economies. Now the country has been reduced to a Terrorist state that's frowned upon by the international community. You bet your ass I'm full of hate!!!!! Me and a growing number of Iranian youth! This is fire under ashes. We have a war to fight and it's just heating up!

There is no doubt that such things that you've mentioned does exist in Iran,after all thats why I dont live there and thats my parents thought I'd have a better future here in Canada,and Iam sure many parents feel them same about their children too.I also understand how angry the youth are in Iran.
I really do hope that things do change in Iran,those people deserve to be free like many other nations around the world.
I just dont see the purpose of posting all those picture,making people who dont know much about Islam think that it is a evil religion and people who believe it are some crazy people.
I hate it when people keep bringing that Al Queda and others like them believe in Islam,and they are muslims too.I DONT BELIEVE THAT,and Iam not alone, many of the Arab world and muslims hate groups like that.They have changed the meaning of this relegion to something full of hate and anger and thats not what being a muslim is all about.

As I said before Iam not a religious person,but I respect them and people who believe in them.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer There is no doubt that such things that you've mentioned does exist in Iran,after all thats why I dont live there and thats my parents thought I'd have a better future here in Canada,and Iam sure many parents feel them same about their children too.I also understand how angry the youth are in Iran. I really do hope that things do change in Iran,those people deserve to be free like many other nations around the world. I just dont see the purpose of posting all those picture,making people who dont know much about Islam think that it is a evil religion and people who believe it are some crazy people. I hate it when people keep bringing that Al Queda and others like them believe in Islam,and they are muslims too.I DONT BELIEVE THAT,and Iam not alone, many of the Arab world and muslims hate groups like that.They have changed the meaning of this relegion to something full of hate and anger and thats not what being a muslim is all about. As I said before Iam not a religious person,but I respect them and people who believe in them.

Don't sweat it ... there's not a major religion on the planet that isn't drenched in blood. Except for maybe buddhism. Personally, I don't think that it's the basic foundation of the Muslim religion itself that are the cause of so many problems so much as it is the fact that the structure of the religion is so decentralized. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is simply no ultimate higher power of sorts such as the catholic pope. There are a multitude of imans, and clerics however who each preach a wide variety of different messages ranging from peace driven, non-violence to bloody, indifferent violence whereby none of them are subjugated to a higher power other than God. There are plenty of ultra-fanatical christian sects where a small minority of members take up terrorism, but do they dare to band together into an adhesive group that openly defies all of catholicism and the pope? I think that the fact that there is no central power so to speak is the reason why there is so much violence today .... the full weight of the peaceful muslim world cannot be brought down upon the extremists and therefore they have free reign to do whatever they want.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer I agree,but some people here only want to pick on Islam,ffs NO RELEGION IS PERFECT!!

Not too long ago there was a thread about christian fundamentalists doing weird things against their children to stop them from masturbating. We have also covered christian fundamentalists less than open views on homosexuality - and we have all laughed at their "arguments".
This thread is clearly labelled "Islamic Morality" and hence the topic should be of no surprise. If you want to defend the practices and text passages put forth by Illsuion then do so. If you can differentiate between an attack on these traits of barabarism and an attack on an entire religion, then you could demonstrate that by renouncing the cruel interpretations given by some fundamentalists, and pointing out where they are wrong. However, appealing to pity to make the argument go away won't help your case (respect for Islam).

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Originally posted by occrider Personally, I don't think that it's the basic foundation of the Muslim religion itself that are the cause of so many problems so much as it is the fact that the structure of the religion is so decentralized. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is simply no ultimate higher power of sorts such as the catholic pope. There are a multitude of imans, and clerics however who each preach a wide variety of different messages ranging from peace driven, non-violence to bloody, indifferent violence whereby none of them are subjugated to a higher power other than God.

It depends on which muslim sects you're talking about. The Shiites of Iran and southern Iraq, for instance, are heavily centralised. There's no papal equivolent, obviously, but they're still centralised around a fairly small group of clerics. The Sunni Muslims, on the other hand, are a decentralised people where the clerics don't wield nearly as much power. In either case, I don't think we can say that "decentralisation" is a major cause of the problems in Islam: remember, Protestants are decentralised too (certainly no papal equivolent - in fact it was the rejection of Catholic centralisation that led to the emergence of Protestantism in the first place, hence the name), so why aren't we seeing similar problems throughout, say, the US bible-belt?

From memory, Islam began as a religion with no clerical structure and I believe that this rejection of having a centralised system of "holy-men" is explicitly stated in the Koran or other holy texts (I think this is one of the tennets the Islamic faith borrowed from Jamesean Christianity, the movement that it most likely sprang from). Under this decentralised system, Islamic cultures were able to make progress in the fields of science and medicine while Europe - under Catholicism - was a true cess-pit in comparison. After the crusades, many of these techniques emerged in Europe and helped this region to flourish, while much of Islamic thought and philosophy influenced Catholicism by imparting second-hand knowledge (such as the wisdom of Greek philosophers, long forgotten in Europe, that made Christianity what it is today) and first-hand knowledge (such as Avoerism, more important to Christianity today, in this age of science and reason, than it ever has been). Now I'm not sure when Islam began to tolerate the emergence of clerics in Islamic societies - or whether this idea was borrowed from the Christians - but I do think that there is a correlation between this clerical ascension and the decline of Islamic cultures. When it was decentralised, Muslims could think for themselves and were free to develop knowledge in the fields I mentioned before. Under a centralised system, however, all of a sudden the clerics could (and did) begin to tell people what to do and how to think, completely antithetical to the progress of science and philosophy, but definitely congenial to the emergence of fundamentalism and extremism. So, if anything, I'd argue that it's not Islam's inherent decentralisation that has led to the problems we see today, but rather the adoption of centralisation. There are many other causes as well, of course, but I think this may be one of them.

And the problem is, this fundamentalist extremism is cyclical. If you live in a society in decline and largely led by religious clerics then you're more likely to be led to religious extremism through your disenchantment. As more people are drawn towards this doctrine, society decays even further, yet more people are drawn in and so on and so forth.

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Feel free to present any christian barbarism of that sort that still goes on these days. There were many christian crimes in the past, but not many are happening now. On the other side, islamic fundamentalism is still flourishing.

There still are acts of Christian barbarism, but obviously not on the scale seen in Muslim cultures. I see the Jehova's Witness' ploy of preventing life-saving medical treatment to their children just as barbaric as slicing their forehead with a razor blade. Walking into an abortion clinic and shooting the staff is no less reprehensible than blowing yourself up in a crowded bus. You need to be just as mentally ill to inflict stigmata on yourself as you do to drench yourself in blood during a religious march. Also, it's a largely relative matter: I, for instance see the death penalty is being exremely barbaric. Frying a woman on an electric chair (as in the largely Christian US) is every bit as reprehensible as hanging a woman from the gallows (as in the largely Muslim Iran).

So like I say, extremism would seem to be a more preponderant problem in the Muslim world than in the Christian west, but let's not pretend that the western Christian mentality is any more "immune" to the dangers of religious exremism than that of the Islamic Arab.

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kudos to you renegade - you pulled the words right out of my mouth...

I am Muslim myself and have always maintained that the problem these days with Islam is the fact that many people tend to follow what clerics and religious leaders (imams) are telling them to do. Althought the Sunni sect is still technically decentralized the Shariah council in Saudi Arabia has an very influential say in what clerics in the Muslim world do and say. As a result, the words of God have been tainted with political agendas and whatnot. A lot of people have blind faith in what these religious leaders preach and the results are retarding the society instead of pushing it forward.

Having said that I am firmly against any religion that is consolidated through a single authority. If we all just keep our beliefs between us and God this world would be all the more better off.

Good points Renegade.

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ya good post renegade, how-ever i want to disagree with you about capital punishment used in the US today as an example of christian barabity. i really belive it has nothing to do with faith but rather it's america's society or culture that is respionsible, not religion.

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Originally posted by Izzy ya good post renegade, how-ever i want to disagree with you about capital punishment used in the US today as an example of christian barabity. i really belive it has nothing to do with faith but rather it's america's society or culture that is respionsible, not religion.

Agreed, but you've opened up a new kettle of fish now.

How do we distinguish between societal/cultural factors and religious factors then? Do these Muslims cut their foreheads because they're Muslim or because they live in Iran? Would they still cut their heads if they weren't a Muslim or if they weren't Iranian?

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note - those pictures depict certain Shi'ite rituals I believe... not "Muslim" in general... They make up only 15 percent of the world's Muslim population and evan smaller percentage actually observe those ceremonies...

classic stereotyping at its most effective...

Imagine how much more peace would be in the world if we would have given the Nazis about a year or more then we gave 'em ?

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