quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King If a native indian came to your doorstep and told you his great gradnfathers Tipee was here....would you leave??? IS that fair? Thats essentiallywhat the Zionists did to the palestinians in 1948.

I've stopped reading after this line.
maybe you should open a history book and read what exactly happend in 1948.

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quote:

Originally posted by Flotser I've stopped reading after this line. maybe you should open an history book and read what exactly happend in 1948.

This example has been reiterated by Norman Finkelstein...a JEWSIH supporter of human rights. I will take his KNOWLEDGE over your "history" books anyday.

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quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King This example has been reiterated by Norman Finkelstein...a JEWSIH supporter of human rights. I will take his KNOWLEDGE over your "history" books anyday.

lol


man you are b-r-a-i-n-w-a-h-s-e-d

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quote:

Originally posted by Flotser lol

Exaclty what i was expecting...so informative!

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by Flotser lol man you are b-r-a-i-n-w-a-h-s-e-d

You are trying to spell out a word for me...yet it is spelled incorrectly.

Similar to the zionist mentality...it is flawed.

___________________
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I'm not going to respond to most of what you wrote, Cyrus (or anything at all that Palestinian wrote), but a few things should be addressed:

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King If Jews can flock to Israel,as they were "refugees" for thousands of years and see ISrael as " a right of return"... why do u think palestinians wont do the same if the desired option was given to them???

It was never my view that Israel was a "right of return" for the Jews... however, you said it yourself, the Jews were refugees and didn't have a Jewish state to go to, whereas the Arabs have over 20 Arab states to go to. Am I supposed to feel sorry for them?

quote:

THEY DO HAVE A RIGHT OF RETURN! you cant just displace a people, force them out of their homes, claiming that your GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT grandfather used to live there. If the greeks came and conqured Iran 50 years ago becuase Alexander the great did the same thing thousands of years ago...and my parents were forced out of their home.. i would want my nationhood back. i would want to see on the world map an Iranian nation that I can call home. This is just exemplary.

So... it's okay if someone's grandfather lived there, but not if their "great great great great great great great great" grandfather lived there? Honestly, what's the difference, where do you draw the line? Where is the right of return for the Jews in the 20 other Arab states? Do you see them blowing things up in Egypt because they want their land back, demanding Egyptian citizenship and a home to live in?

quote:

If a native indian came to your doorstep and told you his great gradnfathers Tipee was here....would you leave??? IS that fair? Thats essentiallywhat the Zionists did to the palestinians in 1948.

And it is exactly what the Palestinians are doing to the Israelis now! What's the difference?

quote:

Did you read what you wrote????? Occupation itself is disgusting and oppressive..IT IS ILLEGFAL.. it shoudnt even be taking place....how can you expect someone to respect you when you control every aspect of their lives and humiliate their existence???

It's an occupation, but not an "illegal" one. Frankly I can hardly blame them for having a military occupation on those territories when citizens from those territories are trying to blow them up? Yes, it's humiliating. Yes, it's oppressive. I agree with you. But if they want to be treated respectfully, they should be respectable.

quote:

You seem to be justifying occupation now by criticizing the actions of the occupied.

Pretty much yes... when the "occupied" appear to still be fighting the same war that should have been over 50 years ago, what choice do they have?

quote:

Rocks, sticks, and suicide bombers against the worlds 5th strongest miltary...nice war

Such a horrible mismatch... and yet, Israel has refrained from completely obliterating the Palestinian people, which it could have done years ago. Does this sound like a people who are out to destroy and humiliate the Palestinians?

I hate to break it to you, but "levelling the playing field" is merely one of those communist/socialist doctrines that managed to make it into mainstream society through feminism and affirmative action years ago. It's not a universal principle, I don't believe in it, and a lot of other people don't either - if the Palestinians are so weak against such a strong army, then the simple solution would be to surrender because they are ridiculously outclassed. This has been done many times throughout history! There's a reason why we have words in our dictionary like "surrender" and "truce".

quote:

If youve read his posts earlier... he has fully backed up his cases with links and quotes from respected sources. He is palestinian.. has lived in palestine... and has better knowledge about the plaesitnian mindset than probably most of us here.

He hasn't backed up anything. Being Palestinian does not make him an expert on all Palestinians any more than my being Canadian makes me an expert on all Canadians. In the most simple sense, it's impossible to generalize for all the Palestinians anyway. The only links he's posted are links to various "tragedies", many of which were printed by biased Arabic news sources like Al Jazeera and put a very weird spin on the story. Even so, I have no problem believing that Israelis are doing a lot of killing of their own, but that proves nothing in the context of this argument.

quote:

The palestinians do have a right to that land becuase they are and were the INDEGINOUS population for centuries.

And the Jews were the indigenous population before that. Like I said, you can go on and on and on back through history, but in the end it's all just speculation. Focus on the present and the future, not the past.

quote:

The point is...Israel is TRYING TO OWN MORE LAND.. by settling the west bank and GAzA, building a wall that digs deeper into palestinian land, and occupying a whole population.

As far as I can recall from various previous peace talks, Israel was more than willing to give up that land in exchange for the elimination of Palestinian terror. Unfortunately, without the "right of return", this wasn't enough. Fine, but don't criticize Israel for keeping their bargaining chips - what would you do? Throw it all away in the blind hope that the terror will magically stop? Israelis fear that the Arabs in Palestine simply want them wiped off the face of the earth, and to be completely honest, the Palestinians haven't done much to prove otherwise. Prove to Israel that their fear is unfounded, and they may start to bend a little more.

quote:

Again.. he does not condone the suicide bombers...if you read his previous posts... he is against killing innocents.

The essential substance of my criticism against him was that he says one thing in one post and something completely different in another post. In one post, he is against the killing of innocents - in another post, he thinks the suicide bombers are completely justified.

quote:

Both sides do have plenty of blood.. but the israeli side has FOUR times more blood on their hands than the palestinians do.

Now THAT I'd like to see your source on.

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quote:

Originally posted by Flotser man you are b-r-a-i-n-w-a-h-s-e-d

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hey, here is a solution for you guys:

Since the Israelis and the Palestinians can not come to any negotiated treaty to ensure peace, but they both desire it, why not do something that would solve this barrier?

Obviously some sides are very heated about this, I don't think you can find such pationate and unwielding debates on any other political issue to be honest.

What is needed is for both parties to "cool" down for a bit, get some cool heads.

How about the Israelis move back to Israel and leave the Palestinians alone and the Palestinians stay where they are and leave the Israelis alone?

Wow what a brilliant idea!

But how would you go about seperating such strong-hearted rivals?

Well I know! They could just build a big wall and physically seperate the two sides, now wouldn't that be swell?!








...
oh and btw in Camp David, Barak offered the Palestinians $60 billion to accomadate their demand for a right of return, and offered also reunification of families. $60 billion is a whole junk of money anywhere in the world but the USA, its 50% of the Israeli GDP!

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I'm not a Zionist. I don't think the Israelis have a god-given right to a Jewish state, but I don't think the Palestinians have god-given rights to the territory either!

It's a common mistake to consider Zionism a religious ideology. Instead it's a very very pragmatic down-to-earth movement that was drawing conclusons from the hard reality that was Europe in the 19th century. Nothing more. By emphasizing on the historical / religious aspect people seek to show the irrationality of Israel's foundation. They deliberately misinterpret the Zionist movement, ignoring its secular nature and keep bullshitting about "god given right". I'm not blaming you DigiNut, I just wanna show how this term is being misused based on pure ignorance.

As for Cyrus and "Palestinian", you make me smile. Keep trying, guys!

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quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut I'm not going to respond to most of what you wrote, Cyrus (or anything at all that Palestinian wrote), but a few things should be addressed: It was never my view that Israel was a "right of return" for the Jews... however, you said it yourself, the Jews were refugees and didn't have a Jewish state to go to, whereas the Arabs have over 20 Arab states to go to. Am I supposed to feel sorry for them? So... it's okay if someone's grandfather lived there, but not if their "great great great great great great great great" grandfather lived there? Honestly, what's the difference, where do you draw the line? Where is the right of return for the Jews in the 20 other Arab states? Do you see them blowing things up in Egypt because they want their land back, demanding Egyptian citizenship and a home to live in? And it is exactly what the Palestinians are doing to the Israelis now! What's the difference? It's an occupation, but not an "illegal" one. Frankly I can hardly blame them for having a military occupation on those territories when citizens from those territories are trying to blow them up? Yes, it's humiliating. Yes, it's oppressive. I agree with you. But if they want to be treated respectfully, they should be respectable. Pretty much yes... when the "occupied" appear to still be fighting the same war that should have been over 50 years ago, what choice do they have? Such a horrible mismatch... and yet, Israel has refrained from completely obliterating the Palestinian people, which it could have done years ago. Does this sound like a people who are out to destroy and humiliate the Palestinians? I hate to break it to you, but "levelling the playing field" is merely one of those communist/socialist doctrines that managed to make it into mainstream society through feminism and affirmative action years ago. It's not a universal principle, I don't believe in it, and a lot of other people don't either - if the Palestinians are so weak against such a strong army, then the simple solution would be to surrender because they are ridiculously outclassed. This has been done many times throughout history! There's a reason why we have words in our dictionary like "surrender" and "truce". He hasn't backed up anything. Being Palestinian does not make him an expert on all Palestinians any more than my being Canadian makes me an expert on all Canadians. In the most simple sense, it's impossible to generalize for all the Palestinians anyway. The only links he's posted are links to various "tragedies", many of which were printed by biased Arabic news sources like Al Jazeera and put a very weird spin on the story. Even so, I have no problem believing that Israelis are doing a lot of killing of their own, but that proves nothing in the context of this argument. And the Jews were the indigenous population before that. Like I said, you can go on and on and on back through history, but in the end it's all just speculation. Focus on the present and the future, not the past. As far as I can recall from various previous peace talks, Israel was more than willing to give up that land in exchange for the elimination of Palestinian terror. Unfortunately, without the "right of return", this wasn't enough. Fine, but don't criticize Israel for keeping their bargaining chips - what would you do? Throw it all away in the blind hope that the terror will magically stop? Israelis fear that the Arabs in Palestine simply want them wiped off the face of the earth, and to be completely honest, the Palestinians haven't done much to prove otherwise. Prove to Israel that their fear is unfounded, and they may start to bend a little more. The essential substance of my criticism against him was that he says one thing in one post and something completely different in another post. In one post, he is against the killing of innocents - in another post, he thinks the suicide bombers are completely justified. Now THAT I'd like to see your source on.

No one is asking for your sympathy to Palestinian refugees. Just because there are many Arab countries doesn't mean anything. They're not Jordanian, not Lebanese, not Kuwaiti, not Iraqi. They are Palestinians. You should confess how much of a racist you are, Diginut.

The Arab Jews do have a right to return to their Arab countries. They don't need to be blowing anything up. They still have that right. Don't deny them their right, Diginut. I understand they don't want to go back, but they still have that right.

It's funny how Jewish refugees from 2000 years can return and become citizens of Israel the moment they declare their intention to return while Palestinian refugees from 50 years cannot. How disgusting.

The occupation is illegal. Check UN resolutions and international law. Citizens from the territories were not blowing up Israeli civilians until 28 years after the occupation. Can you blame them back then? They will be respectable when they are treated with respect.

The Palestinians will never surrender their fundamental human rights. Face it.

I never posted any links from Arabic sources or Al Jazeera.

Israel was never 'more than willing' to give back the territories. You should read into the details of the negotiations. Check this Israeli source: http://www.gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf

Palestinians also fear Israelis are trying to get rid of them, discreetly and circumspectly. Like someone is pushing them out. Check out the effects of the settlements, deportations and collective punishment. All forms of terrorism.

Again, you seem to be unable or unwilling to distinguish between justifying and understanding. It doesn't require too much intellect. Terrorist (or Savage as it was called back then) activity by the native americans against the european colonizers was understandable.

Fatalities in the al-Aqsa Intifada,: 29 Sept. 2000 - 18 December 2003

In the Occupied Territories

2,289 Palestinians were killed by Israeli security forces in the Occupied Territories, of whom 439 were minors under the age of 18.

Within Israel

48 Palestinians, residents of the Occupied Territories, were killed by Israeli security forces gunfire. One of those killed was a minor aged 14.

source: http://www.btselem.org/
The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

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Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."

http://www.btselem.org/
check out the music video made by the organization, "Eyes Wide Open".

___________________
*** Sig will be edited -> see rule #5 regarding political/religious content
Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization: "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly."