quote:

Originally posted by anuneventrade Is Jesus not a legend?

According to Josephus, Jesus was very much real.

___________________
FLUSHED THE JOHNS!

quote:

Originally posted by anuneventrade I believe he was an actual person, but not the son of God. His "rising" after his death seems ficticious to me. I don't understand what sort of significance there might be with someone rising after three days only to die/disappear again. I think that he, along with others throughout history (as aforementioned, Krishna, Buddha, etc..) were quite intelligent people, and considering the education levels that were among commoners at the time, their "revalations" seemed extraordinary. Humans lived among earth for a long time before someone came along and said "Thou shalt not kill". Was it really necessary to have it "etched in stone" so to speak? Do we really have such a low confidence in our own species that we think that without the verbalization of such a "commandment" we wouldn't be able through instinct to not kill? The bible is missing quite a few years of Jesus' life, (I think from ages 18-32 or something of the sort) and that irks me. I don't believe in this nonsense of Noah's arc etc etc. I just think it was used as a fairy tale to tell little children in an attempt to get them to not sin. The bible, imho, is blown out of proportion.

i'll probably burn in hell for saying that i read this book, but here goes.....check out MYTHMAKER: PAUL AND THE INVENTION OF CHRISTIANITY by Hyam Maccoby. it's an older book (1989) and a wee bit biased but still thought-provoking, IMO.
review by a reader:
"Maccoby's book will no doubt be summarily dismissed by dogmatists and pietists as a gross character assassination and defamation of religious faith, because it shows Paul to be the brilliantly clever creator of an eclectic religion (Christianity) that manages to synthesize elements of Gnosticism, mystery religion, and Judaism in a unique and powerful (if incoherent) mix through his epistles and through the later-written gospels whose theology Paul so signally and strategically shaped. From Gnosticism Paul derives the idea of the descent of a divine figure from the world above (the realm of Light) to the world below (the realm of Darkness), from mystery religion the idea of a savior whose death and resurrection shall bring a salvation that mere adherence to law (such as the Torah) cannot bring, and from Judaism the idea of a Messiah as a human figure--giving us a figure both human and divine who suffers a real and agonizing salvific death: in the words of the Book of Common Prayer, "a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice for the sins of the world." Having taken these elements from these sources and merged them into a synthesis, Paul creates a new and unique religion, one rooted in a venerable history yet distinct in general from Gnosticism, from mystery religion, and from Judaism.

Paul and later expositors, however, had to connect this new religion with Jesus. The validity of the religion depended not on its having been a creation of Paul's but on its having come from Jesus himself. It needed also to be made clear that Christianity was not a religion that would challenge the Roman empire; its followers had to be portrayed as persons convinced that Rome was innocent of the shedding of Jesus' blood. The scapegoats for his death became "the Jews," read over the centuries as ALL the Jews, including their descendants, not just the henchmen of the High Priest--a development, by the way, surely involved in the subsequent shameful history of antisemitism.

Maccoby, making clear in his book who the Pharisees were, what they stood for, and how they fit into their society--they were not on the whole hypocrites obsessed with purity, as they are depicted in the Gospels--asserts and attempts to demonstrate that Jesus of Nazareth was himself a Pharisee and that Paul was not, that Paul in fact, before his "revelation" on the road to Damascus, was in effect a police agent in the employ of the High Priest (not of the Sanhedrin), the High Priest appointed by Rome, himself a Jewish quisling concerned primarily with putting down any attempt on the part of any group of Judeans who might take it into their heads to challenge the authority of the Roman imperium. Paul, after his defection from the High Priest, later finds enemies among the collaborators associated with the High Priest, who remembers his defection, as well as among some of the Nazarenes in Jerusalem, who have reason to believe that Paul, contrary to agreement, is continuing to preach the abrogation of the Torah among the Gentiles, for (Maccoby asserts) the Jerusalem "Church" led by James and Peter remained loyal to the tenets and practices of Judaism, holding, of course, without offense to fellow Pharisees, that Jesus was indeed the resurrected Messiah (a purely human figure) who would return again to liberate the Jews from Roman power and to usher in a world of peace and justice.

It is clear to most biblical scholars that the Hebrew Bible (the Pentateuch and Former Prophets) and the New Testament are very sophisticated propaganda documents comprised of earlier redacted materials and of later insertions, the authors for the most part not known. The texts, as I see them, are nevertheless spiritually, culturally, and historically of the first importance and not therefore to be dismissed as mere trash. They require only to be understood for what they are with a view to amending the uses to which we put them. N.T. Wright, the great Anglican scholar, in his magisterial THE NEW TESTAMENT AND THE PEOPLE OF GOD (vol. 1 of CHRISTIAN ORIGINS AND THE QUESTION OF GOD), raises the question of what shall constitute an appropriate reading of the New Testament. "We are looking for an appropriate reading, and there is at present no agreement as to what might count." In the light of Maccoby's work (which we should read, of course, in connection with other scholarly work), Wright's question, if we take it as one worth asking and seeking an answer to, is indeed an agonizing one."

couldn't have said it better myself

___________________
ya neva know!

quote:

Originally posted by tranceaholic well..so what if u saw a miracle..like someone who couldnt walk again was able to or couldnt give birth and was able to..and what if someone u know got really sick? dont u wish upon a miracle or something..what do u atheists do? give em a high five or something and wish em luck? just wondering what u do when u know that science cant help u..

I beleve that the nature of reality exhibits these results, not a miracle worker. If someone couldnt walk in the past, and suddenly can walk or cure themselves of a disease, it is probably that a scientific/biological explanation exists, as opposed to a probability that the miracle worker did it and wants people to beleive in them.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Am I to understand that you want me to respond to everyone in this thread? Why? I would think that others have done well in responding to opposing Christian views quite well. Do I need to reiterate other's responses, just for you? I think I would need a little more motivation for such. (Side note: I believe you used the word "attain" incorrectly in your above sentence. Could you clarify?) ** First of all i was saying that you suggested that Heinz reply to all the posts. Secondly I was stating if you believe he should, if it were your thread would you have time or be able to reply to all the posts? Heinz has an opinion that some here find controversal (as it appears do you). Others responded, as did I. If he, you, or anyone else can support their opinions, I am all for it. This is the point of debate. I'm honestly getting f$cking sick and tired of seeing random people come to the DEBATE FORUM and post opinions that they cannot support with evidence. It's becoming seriously annoying and borderline obnoxious. So I would like to once again state that if you are going to give your opinions on any beliefs you may have in the DEBATE FORUM, be prepared to support those beliefs with evidence. Otherwise, post your unsupported opinions in the Chillout Room along with those that think they created the world's most unhealthy sandwich, wonder what are the drugs of choice, some f$cked up newbie duo named "TOAD@" and are interested in TRANCE, and stories of Mardi Gras! ** OHHH.....sorry, that sounds like a personal problem to me** Umm, no, I wasn't referring to "Blaspahmies", as you so state. I was referring to the contradiction itself between the two passages. Do you have a response to the contradiction to the two passages? ** I guess not........ Indeed we do have opinions. I tend to create opinions, or assertions rather, on things from which I see evidence for. You're completely free to have opinions on anything you wish, of course, but when you bring those opinions out for the public to view, you should do a little better in supporting such opinions. Otherwise, they are not very good sound opinions to have. Well if he's a great philosopher, how is it that you are rushing so quickly to his aid for support? Good philosophers would most certainly be able to support themselves with sound logic, a vital part of philosophy. ** Because great philosophers work together! And that pertains to...what? ** i put it there because i felt like it So you're saying that since I didn't start the thread, I can therefore not comment and criticize what I deem a lack of logic on other's opinions within the thread, or even the thread starter? That makes sense. ** No. That's not what i intended on saying if that's how you view it. Well now that's not very Christian of you to say now, is it?

:

** Keep in mind i'm probably not quite as OLD as you. ....also...i've been to church ....lets see the last time Christmas Eve. I also do not feel offended by your statement that i should "visit the chillout room". Well, if you feel that there's too much bullcrap in here, why don't you leave? I also am trying to build my debate skills, and since you will never meet me, nor will anyone else( i assume) then there is no problem making mistakes. Also, i'm having fun, too.

___________________
Explaining back sticking: "grip the shaft lightly, and tap the butt."

quote:

Originally posted by imokruok According to Josephus, Jesus was very much real.

Main Entry: leg·end
Pronunciation: 'le-j&nd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English legende, from Middle French & Medieval Latin; Middle French legende, from Medieval Latin legenda, from Latin, feminine of legendus, gerundive of legere to gather, select, read; akin to Greek legein to gather, say, logos speech, word, reason
1 a : a story coming down from the past; especially : one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable b : a body of such stories c : a popular myth of recent origin d : a person or thing that inspires legends e : the subject of a legend
2 a : an inscription or title on an object (as a coin) b : CAPTION 2b c : an explanatory list of the symbols on a map or chart


I don't consider the Bible to be verifiable documentation. With this in mind, Jesus' miraculous acts can be considered historical but not verifiable.

Cammie- I'll pick that up. I applaud those who strive to understand various perspectives on subjects. As I clearly stated earlier, at no point and time, did I say whether I believed that Jesus was part of mythology. I simply presented the case and the argument that could be used for it.

quote:

I also am trying to build my debate skills, and since you will never meet me, nor will anyone else( i assume) then there is no problem making mistakes. Also, i'm having fun, too.

One of the best ways to learn is through mistakes, but you must be willing to accept that you made them.

One of the best ways to learn is through mistakes, but you must be willing to accept that you made them.[/font] [/QUOTE]


** Thanks. I do agree. I guess I just have to work on the last part somewhat. G'nite

___________________
Explaining back sticking: "grip the shaft lightly, and tap the butt."

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King IT is a growing opinion too. People are realizing its all a bunchof stupid bullshit that people used to explain their relities. Now we have SCIENCE!!! Thanks "god" for that!

No no no, You're confusing opinion and fact. What you're saying,It's only OPINION.

quote:

No there isnt a huge difference... they are all mythological/ legends that have very little evidence to prove their existence. Like Arbiter mentioned.. there are CAUSES as to why people beleive things....what has CAUSED you not to beleive in elves and goblins?

Yes there is, you to blind to see it? God isn't mythological.

quote:

Please do yourself a favour and read soemthing other than the bible. This hopeless babble of jesus coming back to judge everyone is a crack of bull. Its never going to happen. Get over it.

You need to be a lot more respectful towards someones opinion and belief. You have to realize I have every right to believe in what I wish to,just as you do. I'm not down here dogging on your belief, so I'm going to ask you not to diss anyone elses. Alright?

___________________
~Nessa

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 No no no, You're confusing opinion and fact. What you're saying,It's only OPINION. [QUOTE] At least you admit its your opinion and that there is no proof of the poposterous claims religios make. [QUOTE] Yes there is, you to blind to see it? God isn't mythological.

Then I guess Zues isnt mythological either is he.

quote:

You need to be a lot more respectful towards someones opinion and belief. You have to realize I have every right to believe in what I wish to,just as you do. I'm not down here dogging on your belief, so I'm going to ask you not to diss anyone elses. Alright?

I think in time, hopefully, you will come to realize that organized religion was conjured up in the middle east where civilizations began to think of ways of explaining the unknown. People started to babble about gods... and then other people began to babble about a singular god. I guess certain individuals thought that burning bushes were a sign of deitic enlightenment, but that besides the point. Nevertheless, individuals... smart ones that is, also began to say they were special and directly had a duty that GOD wanted them to accomplish.

Even today...people like david koresh had a somewhat surprising following...claiming he was Jesus reseurrected.

In the ancient world, they didnt have the technological advances and scientific explanations about certain phenomena's that occured, so they would explain them by illustrating it as "gods" power.

As well...FEAR was instilled in these religions. Fear the almighty or you will be punished. Naturally, uneducated peasants saw this as a possibility and the "MAYBE ITS TRUE" ideology consumed their logic and in a way forced them to beleive in this god becuase of their possible punishment.

I cant beleive that after 2000 FUCKING YEARS.... THIS IS STILL BELEIVED!!!!!

CAUSE...thats the key word...CAUSE.... what causes you to beleive in these stories??????

What CAUSES you not to beleive in ZEUS?????

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 No no no, You're confusing opinion and fact. What you're saying,It's only OPINION. Yes there is, you to blind to see it? God isn't mythological. You need to be a lot more respectful towards someones opinion and belief. You have to realize I have every right to believe in what I wish to,just as you do. I'm not down here dogging on your belief, so I'm going to ask you not to diss anyone elses. Alright?

FINALLY, SOMEONE HERE TO HELP BACK ME UP!!! i dont know EVERYTHING about christianity, like i said, i am a student of the bible. if u people really want answers. talk to a scholar. bible college student, or anyone who has been taught scripture by professor. or u can keep argueing with me, which its hard for me to win against all of you, as i dont know enough to respond to every one of your 91 responses to me.

essentially, ive given up this debate, but u know my stance, and my eveidence. believe it or not. jesus said, "by faith alone can u enter the kingdom of heaven."

---------------
and what many of u dont know is, becoming a christian and gaining the holy spirit IS being set free. u know where your going when u die. i cant wait to die, or be taken up in the rapture. at least i have something to look forward to after this life. u can continue to believe in nothing, or in karma...LASTLY
---------------------------------------------

Do you know where you are going when you die??

Are you going to heaven or hell??

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Heinz FINALLY, SOMEONE HERE TO HELP BACK ME UP!!! i dont know EVERYTHING about christianity, like i said, i am a student of the bible. if u people really want answers. talk to a scholar. bible college student, or anyone who has been taught scripture by professor. or u can keep argueing with me, which its hard for me to win against all of you, as i dont know enough to respond to every one of your 91 responses to me. essentially, ive given up this debate, but u know my stance, and my eveidence. believe it or not. jesus said, "by faith alone can u enter the kingdom of heaven." --------------- and what many of u dont know is, becoming a christian and gaining the holy spirit IS being set free. u know where your going when u die. i cant wait to die, or be taken up in the rapture. at least i have something to look forward to after this life. u can continue to believe in nothing, or in karma...LASTLY --------------------------------------------- Do you know where you are going when you die?? ** I know where you are going, hell.....! Are you going to heaven or hell??

___________________
Explaining back sticking: "grip the shaft lightly, and tap the butt."

quote:

Originally posted by Heinz FINALLY, SOMEONE HERE TO HELP BACK ME UP!!! i dont know EVERYTHING about christianity, like i said, i am a student of the bible. if u people really want answers. talk to a scholar. bible college student, or anyone who has been taught scripture by professor. or u can keep argueing with me, which its hard for me to win against all of you, as i dont know enough to respond to every one of your 91 responses to me. essentially, ive given up this debate, but u know my stance, and my eveidence. believe it or not. jesus said, "by faith alone can u enter the kingdom of heaven." --------------- and what many of u dont know is, becoming a christian and gaining the holy spirit IS being set free. u know where your going when u die. i cant wait to die, or be taken up in the rapture. at least i have something to look forward to after this life. u can continue to believe in nothing, or in karma...LASTLY --------------------------------------------- Do you know where you are going when you die?? Are you going to heaven or hell??

YOu are, like every other organism on this earth going to be consumed by bacteria as your body rots beneath the earth.

Thats what happens.

Or you can have your remains combusted and turned to ash.

You become energy, in another form.

There are no green lush valleys with trees blooming mutliple fruits behind a golden gate.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V