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Originally posted by Orbax I agree that organized religion has become something of an industry. However, thats macro level. There are still many devoted people who restrain themselves, or try to be less angry in the name of religion. There are also those who kill and condemn people in the name of religion. There are people who restrain themselves and be less angry for the sake of highblood pressure and history of rage there are those that kill and condemn people because they have high blood pressure and a history of rage. point: People are people. For every point, there is a counter point. The main ideas I take away from Christianity are what God told to Peter. The core concepts of love thy neighbor, gather with your fellow man, and more broadly, enjoy this amazing world youve been given. Ive climbed 4000 foot mountains at 3am Sunday mornings to watch a sunrise over Mt.Rainier. I sit there while the entire world sleeps and bask in the amazing life Ive been granted. Ive tried to be more understanding, I take an interest in the beliefs of others....I dont think sitting in a church or wearing a cross (which I do) makes me any better. It is just something to remind me of how amazing everything is! I hadnt gone to church in over a year, when one sunday I decided to. The next morning I foolishly rolled off a cliff. They were shocked I was alive, much less uninjured, my airbag didnt even have to go off. It looked like the hand of God was around the driver (me). I mean, I think its great (sarcasm) that some people try to take away others belief in God, to lessen their feelings of warmth, friendship, and connected ness, but I think that you should try to understand it before you attack it. There are some lonely people out there, and God is the only person thats keepin them on this earth with some Hope. ... just think you should be less upset about it all...dont get why someone believing in something where you believe there is nothing would upset you so much. ah well. I believe in Zen to a pretty large degree, and it makes up a lot of my day to day philosophy. I dont think any ONE thing is right, and I go off the basis that God is logical and wouldnt care that much as long as you pretty much got it right and sent some love back up the pipe you know? Speaking of which, your moment of Zen

Amazing pics. Where is that?


I think I was misunderstood. Here: I believe there is a higher being of some sorts. I believe in giving him thanks and acknowledgment and respect all those who do as well. But, wouldn't he/she/it rather have minimalized time in worshipping him/her/it and using those religious principles to help one another? Not to keep it retained in ourselves, but rather extend it those on common ground; to not be so caught up in this forthcoming heaven that we seem to miss what heaven we have the ability to produce here on earth.

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Originally posted by Orbax Aye, I dont think prayers need to be verbal. Its a communion with God, and if you need to vibrate air particles to do it, I think youre missing a key concept somewhere.

i agree. that's really why i don't like any mass religion...because religions should be a personal relationship not something your parents made you accept. if people come to their own level of truth or understanding...then i can't say anything to that...i just don't like people that have a religion because they were born into it.

hehe, Jesus pretty much told people exactly that. That they were spending too much time patting themselves on the back in churches while they should be out in the streets helping eachother and spreading joy.

In one sense, I have seen a lot of people who...basically dont think they are leading good lives, view religion as a rather masturbatical way of making themselves feel better. They get to think that God loves them anyway, and he knows they are trying, etc...

Most people forget that religion is a pro-active, not reactive, thing.

Last edited by Orbax on May-14-2005 at 19:24

^^^ Spoken words of a genius !!! Well, you and Jesus both.

Hey, this is off topic. Tell me all you know on Plato's "Allegory of the Cave." I just learned about this in Political Science. Who would have thought, philosophy in Political Science?! Very interesting !

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Originally posted by Estella ^^^ Spoken words of a genius !!! Well, you and Jesus both. Hey, this is off topic. Tell me all you know on Plato's "Allegory of the Cave." I just learned about this in Political Science. Who would have thought, philosophy in Political Science?! Very interesting !

what do you want to know about it hehehe.

give me a sec and i'll type something up...but i'd rather not repeat what you already know...do you know the allegory...was it explained? or was that what you're looking for. do you know the basic idea of it...

well..platonic forms arent that complex of a subject. He entire philosophy on life and reality differ from modern day ontological perspectives. Aristotle was a realist; but Plato...the guy was just weird. Thought geometry was behind everything, that what we are seeing are just weak forms of reality. Like a shadow on the wall, or a reflection in a pool, there is a more perfect ideal somewhere...

just weird, and ultimately a fruitless perspective.

edit: also those pictures were of Mt.Si in Northbend, Washington

Floor: Yes, just the basics were explained. I didn't know if the ultimate lesson to break free of shackles and "see the light" was the basis or if there was more indepth meaning that she left out.

Orbax: Whoa, modestly speaking, your first sentence is wayyyy over my head lol. The rest I can contend with. In class, we just skimmed over the basics of Plato, Aristotle, Machiavelli, Augustine, Locke, Rousseau, and Aquinas. Of all, I definately thought Plato's beliefs to be less "dry." I don't know if that is the right word. What you described, of the geometry behind everything, sounds a bit similar to Quantum Physics. No? Anyways, this all first interested me after seeing "I Heart Huckabees." I know.. I know. Hollywood vainly motivates yet another. But after seeing these perspectives and principles I felt so HIGH and full of LIFE. It may be just a cheap, knock off, gaining credit for someone else's discoveries or distortation of one's beliefs. But gawd, I never felt the way I did after seeing that film. I had chills and was estatic and felt so full. What do you call that method of thinking? But of course, you know how it goes, that feeling slowly detiorated as the main points in that film I so wanted to be engrained in me were forgotten. Where do I begin? What method was expressed in that film? What do you recommend? BEGINNER'S books. lol

Last edited by Estella on May-14-2005 at 19:57

even though i do not belive in a god, or in any religion to its max, i still consider my self catholic, and i would prefer a person who was catholic ... or eastern orthadox, aglican, among those lines...

i would do a church wedding mostly bc i feel more comfortable with it and b/c its very traditional.... and socialy correct in my family... just the way i was brought up....

but then again i'm not getting married any time soon nor do i have anyone to talk with about the topic... come my time i may or may not change my mind about how i would marry and who i would marry

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Originally posted by jennypie
Because you're a filthy WHORE!

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Originally posted by Estella Floor: Yes, just the basics were explained. I didn't know if the ultimate lesson to break free of shackles and "see the light" was the basis or if there was more indepth meaning that she left out.

well yeah kinda. here is my basic understanding of it...its been a while of course hehehe...

basically you have the people shackled so they can't see the fire and only its shadow. the light from the fire is artificial and representative of the natural light from outside the cave, which is representative of a greater truth. the people of the cave can only see the shadows of from the fire because they are bound by ignorance. nonetheless, because they know nothing else, they assume that it is real light i.e. the truth. the reflections in the cave are symbolic of the misconceptions of life. but the people of the cave no nothing other than the shadows of the wall so they live in ignorance.

when the man escapes from his shackles i.e. gains an understanding of the true nature of things he is then confronted with a choice.

1. he can live outside the cave with this knowledge to himself, knowing that the others are still in the cave.

2. he can return to the cave and attempt to free the people from it, and hence bring them to enlightenment.

because the people of the cave will not be able to understand the experiences of the man because all they know is the illusions of the shadows, the man will experience frustration and discontent in trying to teach them what he's seen. but at the same time, because he has this knowledge and wishes to share it with others he is also discontented with keeping it to himself. the man cannot go back to living within the cave because he will know what he does and yet the life alone is a very lonely one.

ok ok...i think that was basically it...but like i said its been a good while hehehe. but anyway...basically the whole ignorance is bliss thing...you can go into a much deeper analysis of it then that, but that is the basic concept behind it...

Last edited by Floorfiller on May-14-2005 at 20:38

gay i have to re-write all this cuz i hit back;

anyway, the idea behind it was the shadows were real, the highest level of reality for them. When he escaped he saw a more complete, higher reality of the form on the wall. His philosophy was that at the highest level of reality there are abstractions of the perfect forms and being reflected to us by an imperfect medium/we cant perceive what is actually there.

The man went back to his former comrades and tried to tell them of the reality outside. They became uncomfortable, fearful, and finally rageful that he was upsetting the status quo and they finally killed im for trying to reveal the truth.

I believe this was shortly after Socrates his friend was killed by the aristocracy for asking them hard questions in public and challenging the norm.

--
geometry like this model of "platonic solids" is whatI was talking about. this was made by Kepler as an explanation for the orbits of our solar system before he went to eliptical paths and made his 3 laws of planetary motion.

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Originally posted by trancechaos how important is it that your partner shares the same religious beliefs as you?

i dont care

im not into religion

if my wife does, then the kids will grow up into THAT one...

however, im gonna tell my wife that IF my kids ask me whats up with ME........ ill tell them MY beliefs openly and how i reached them.


im pretty open about things like this.

EDIT: i see some philosophical view points are being dicussed....lucky i dont have the net and im using gavins, or id put my 2 cents. Nihilism all the way!!! lol

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