quote:

Originally posted by smuncky and what do we do with the streetcars?

sell them to the highest bidder, cut our losses and move on. They are about to replace a whole fleet of them anyways. So why not just replace them with busses?

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

what I worry about is all the low lives that will be giving the drivers a hard time over the week. as if it's their personal decision.

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khalalala member #2

quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 sell them to the highest bidder, cut our losses and move on. They are about to replace a whole fleet of them anyways. So why not just replace them with busses?

no one would want them cuz no other transit system on earth could support them because of their gauge size. toronto is the only system on earth with 4 foot, 10 7/8 inches between rails.

and even though they are going to replace them (not in the near future at least) doesnt meen that we need to get rid of them. the older CLRVs and the ALRV could be used for rush hour traffic. this would increase frequency along many routes. this might actually bring us to what a future fleet should be like, in terms of size.

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"The best car-related innovation we have is not to improve the car, but eliminate the need to drive it everywhere we go.” -Alex Steffen

Hire an excuse to upheave the transit system. I don't care who. McKinsey, Bain, BCG, Monitor... Anything.

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quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf It's time to end the combination of 1) government-mandated monopolies and 2) right to strike for the TTC, Canada Post, etc. They can have one or the other, but not both.

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf That's why the government should either: end the government monopoly on public transit, take away the union's right to strike, or "open the shop" and hire non-union workers. Sadly, I don't see such leadership from McGuinty.

Smash the transit monopoly

Andrew Coyne
National Post

Wednesday, May 31, 2006

After the 2003 blackout, the last time Toronto commuters had to walk to work -- the city's electrically-powered subways and streetcars having been knocked out along with everything else -- the newspapers were filled with solemn meditations on the deeper meaning of it all: man's dependence on technology, the fragility of power grids, an interconnected world, etc. etc.

This time, the city's transit system was shut down by a strike, the fourth since 1989, and no such search for root causes seems to have occurred. The Toronto Sun fumed that someone should pay for all the disruption. The Toronto Star demanded the transit workers' union apologize. A Globe columnist speculated the union leader might be suffering from an overdose of testosterone. There was even a call to have transit strikes declared illegal, apparently in the belief that this would prevent illegal strikes such as Monday's.

But the problem is not that transit strikes are legal, any more than it is that union leaders are irresponsible (or male). Unions strike when it is to their advantage, and it is to their advantage, typically, where they hold some kind of monopoly -- if not, other workers would simply step in to fill the gap.

In the present case, the union benefits from a double monopoly: the monopoly it enjoys on the supply of labour to its employer, the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC), and the monopoly the TTC enjoys over its customers. But of course, the one is the product of the other. Were there no transit monopoly, the union's would dissolve as well.

So entrenched is the TTC's monopoly that many people may assume public transit is some sort of "natural" monopoly, like electricity transmission, where the initial costs of constructing the network confer massive economies of scale, allowing the largest firm to price its competitors out the market. It isn't: To run a bus service all you need are a few buses. Even the subways could make room for competing providers on a common set of tracks.

The reason public transit is a monopoly, not only in Toronto but in cities across Canada, is not nature but statute. Unannounced as this latest strike was, within hours improvising entrepreneurs had come up with alternatives: The TV news showed some delighted commuters sharing a limo downtown at $20 a pop. But at most times, the providers of such private transit services would face prosecution. Strikes may be legal, but competing with the TTC is strictly verboten.

And the costs of monopoly are not just counted in strike days. The TTC is in the grip of a spiral of escalating costs, rising prices and stagnant ridership. While taxpayers pick up roughly 50 cents of the cost of each journey (at more than $300-million this year, the TTC operating subsidy is the second-most expensive item in the city's budget, after the police), service is notoriously poor, marked by a patchy subway network, half-filled buses and the commission's disastrous love affair with its undependable, unsightly, slow-moving streetcars.

While the TTC remains stuck in the monopoly rut, around the world the movement is toward competition in public transit. Britain's remains the most radical experiment: In 1985, the streets of Britain were thrown open to competition from private bus services, in every city outside London. The results, admittedly, have been mixed. While costs were slashed by 42%, partly by experimenting with minivans, jitneys and other alternatives to the traditional bus, prices have not moderated to the extent hoped.

Firms have instead tended to compete on timeliness, scooping up riders by arriving at a stop minutes before their rivals, a tactic known as "schedule jockeying." To guard against this, some firms took to swamping their routes with hordes of buses, giving rise to worsening congestion and competition-inhibiting economies of scale.

So in many other cities, from Copenhagen to San Diego, a different model was adopted: putting out routes to competitive tender, or "contracting out." Here, the record of savings to the taxpayer is unambiguous, and it is hard to see why Toronto should not have learned from the experience of neighbouring municipalities, such as Hamilton, Ont., where costs are demonstrably lower. If the TTC is as efficient as its supporters claim, it should have nothing to fear.

But while safer politically, this is a static model, with little incentive for innovation in service delivery. A third model would combine the first two, correcting for some of the deficiencies of the British model by auctioning off "curb rights" -- that is, the right to pick up passengers from a given stop for a given time interval. That way, firms that had incurred the costs of gathering passengers in one spot would not see their investment profit their competitors.

But which sort of competition works best is a debate for another day. For now, it is enough to agree, as Toronto's transit riders surely must: Abolish the monopoly!

[email protected]

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quote:

Originally posted by Jayx1 that should put bus drivers alongside: 1)telemarketers - who make around $10/hr 2)longstanding Dominion employees - who are unionized which is why i dont shop at dominions (they always have the highest prices) 3)garbage people - nope - garbage men in toronto make somewhere in the 20s for wages as well (another waste of money) 4)retail workers - who make minimum wage up to $11 5)bouncers - who make between 10 and 12 an hour So you see, there would be a bit more for bus drivers. DO you seriously think they deserve up to $30 an hour plus benefits to drive a bus??? Yeah the hours suck but welcome to the world of unskilled labour! Tell that to the plant line worker making 12-15 for the nightshift who probably requires more skills than driving a bus. Im not saying the job is a nice one, but it doesnt take much education to be a bus driver and the pay should reflect this.

Its very nice in life when you can leave important facts out of an argument to make a point.

A lack of education does not mean a lack of skill. I do not believe it would be easy to drive a bus in a packed city, and a city with THIS many cars competing for the same amount of road.

In terms of comparing bus drivers to those other jobs, completly unfair comparison. Nobody on that list (except the bouncers) are explicitly responsible for the lives of 100s, maybe 1000s of people per day. Along with the garbage workers, bus drivers are also responsible for a very expensive piece of machinery, busses and garbage trucks.

Commercial pilots get paid a lot because they are responsible for million dollar planes, and 100s of people's lives. The actual flying is not THAT tough anymore with the amount of equipment in the cockpit.

quote:

Originally posted by SniFFleS If the TTC workers weren't such total fuckin assholes then 90% of the assualts wouldnt happen. They shouldn't get away with screwing the entire city and surronding area over. We pay there wages and they fuck us. WTF!

u sa1d 1t

I really hate the TTC. As a result of their shitty service, I missed a day of work on Monday and was late for work due to a delay yesterday. I got on the Subway this morning, and for the first time in months, I actually got a seat! I sit down, and after 10 minutes of the train not leaving the station, we are instructed to get off the train and take a shuttle bus to Broadview station. So once again, I was late for work. This time I was 35 minutes late.

This is getting beyond fucking ridiculous. My work day has been affected for 3 consecutive days now.

Why is it that this stuff never happens on the GO system?

Get your fucking act together TTC.

quote:

Originally posted by The Highroller Why is it that this stuff never happens on the GO system? Get your fucking act together TTC.

How often do you take the GO? I've actually found the TTC more reliable in the last year of using it, than the previous 3 years of commuting on the GO. I used to GO train it from Sauga to downtown, train it to York, and then bus it home, 4 days a week. The amount of late trains/busses, poor service got me fed up with the GO.

Do not even get me started on the GO train delays during the winter. Get some fuckin warmers for those track switches!

I do see your complaints against the TTC as valid ones though. Sitting on a subway for 10min only to be told to get off, has happened to me too.

quote:

Originally posted by Orko Its very nice in life when you can leave important facts out of an argument to make a point. A lack of education does not mean a lack of skill. I do not believe it would be easy to drive a bus in a packed city, and a city with THIS many cars competing for the same amount of road. In terms of comparing bus drivers to those other jobs, completly unfair comparison. Nobody on that list (except the bouncers) are explicitly responsible for the lives of 100s, maybe 1000s of people per day. Along with the garbage workers, bus drivers are also responsible for a very expensive piece of machinery, busses and garbage trucks. Commercial pilots get paid a lot because they are responsible for million dollar planes, and 100s of people's lives. The actual flying is not THAT tough anymore with the amount of equipment in the cockpit.

Youd be surprised about commercial pilots. In canada pilots dont make much money at all. I would actually bet that bus drivers actually make more than many commercial pilots in canada. My cousin is a pilot and i know for a fact that he does not make $25-$30 an hour to fly a 727.

I never said that bus driving was a breeze, but its certainly not worth the pay that it gets in Toronto. Operating a bus is not as life and death as you make it out to be.

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf Smash the transit monopoly Andrew Coyne National Post Wednesday, May 31, 2006 After the 2003 blackout, the last time Toronto commuters had to walk to work -- the city's electrically-powered subways and streetcars having been knocked out along with everything else -- the newspapers were filled with solemn meditations on the deeper meaning of it all: man's dependence on technology, the fragility of power grids, an interconnected world, etc. etc. This time, the city's transit system was shut down by a strike, the fourth since 1989, and no such search for root causes seems to have occurred. The Toronto Sun fumed that someone should pay for all the disruption. The Toronto Star demanded the transit workers' union apologize. A Globe columnist speculated the union leader might be suffering from an overdose of testosterone. There was even a call to have transit strikes declared illegal, apparently in the belief that this would prevent illegal strikes such as Monday's. But the problem is not that transit strikes are legal, any more than it is that union leaders are irresponsible (or male). Unions strike when it is to their advantage, and it is to their advantage, typically, where they hold some kind of monopoly -- if not, other workers would simply step in to fill the gap. In the present case, the union benefits from a double monopoly: the monopoly it enjoys on the supply of labour to its employer, the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC), and the monopoly the TTC enjoys over its customers. But of course, the one is the product of the other. Were there no transit monopoly, the union's would dissolve as well. So entrenched is the TTC's monopoly that many people may assume public transit is some sort of "natural" monopoly, like electricity transmission, where the initial costs of constructing the network confer massive economies of scale, allowing the largest firm to price its competitors out the market. It isn't: To run a bus service all you need are a few buses. Even the subways could make room for competing providers on a common set of tracks. The reason public transit is a monopoly, not only in Toronto but in cities across Canada, is not nature but statute. Unannounced as this latest strike was, within hours improvising entrepreneurs had come up with alternatives: The TV news showed some delighted commuters sharing a limo downtown at $20 a pop. But at most times, the providers of such private transit services would face prosecution. Strikes may be legal, but competing with the TTC is strictly verboten. And the costs of monopoly are not just counted in strike days. The TTC is in the grip of a spiral of escalating costs, rising prices and stagnant ridership. While taxpayers pick up roughly 50 cents of the cost of each journey (at more than $300-million this year, the TTC operating subsidy is the second-most expensive item in the city's budget, after the police), service is notoriously poor, marked by a patchy subway network, half-filled buses and the commission's disastrous love affair with its undependable, unsightly, slow-moving streetcars. While the TTC remains stuck in the monopoly rut, around the world the movement is toward competition in public transit. Britain's remains the most radical experiment: In 1985, the streets of Britain were thrown open to competition from private bus services, in every city outside London. The results, admittedly, have been mixed. While costs were slashed by 42%, partly by experimenting with minivans, jitneys and other alternatives to the traditional bus, prices have not moderated to the extent hoped. Firms have instead tended to compete on timeliness, scooping up riders by arriving at a stop minutes before their rivals, a tactic known as "schedule jockeying." To guard against this, some firms took to swamping their routes with hordes of buses, giving rise to worsening congestion and competition-inhibiting economies of scale. So in many other cities, from Copenhagen to San Diego, a different model was adopted: putting out routes to competitive tender, or "contracting out." Here, the record of savings to the taxpayer is unambiguous, and it is hard to see why Toronto should not have learned from the experience of neighbouring municipalities, such as Hamilton, Ont., where costs are demonstrably lower. If the TTC is as efficient as its supporters claim, it should have nothing to fear. But while safer politically, this is a static model, with little incentive for innovation in service delivery. A third model would combine the first two, correcting for some of the deficiencies of the British model by auctioning off "curb rights" -- that is, the right to pick up passengers from a given stop for a given time interval. That way, firms that had incurred the costs of gathering passengers in one spot would not see their investment profit their competitors. But which sort of competition works best is a debate for another day. For now, it is enough to agree, as Toronto's transit riders surely must: Abolish the monopoly! [email protected]

I agree completely with this article. I have used many of the private systems he talks about and the difference is night and day compared to our shoddy system. If i lived in most parts of Europe id probably never buy a car. Not so here. Even in britain where he says prices have not come down. I agree its pricey there, but you never wait more than 5 mins for a bus or train and the subway will take you almost anywhere. In short, you get what you pay for.

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quote:

Originally posted by jester Everything in this country is illegal.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery…" Winston Churchill

‎"If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law" - Winston Churchill