quote:

Originally posted by Scolomon Whoever said this is obviously insane: 'But Arabs? Arabs don't seem to have too many problems with anyone.' They seem to have problems with denmark when they publish cartoons they don't like. Or other countries that republished the cartoon. Freedom of speech kind of threatens their religious fanaticism. Don't you remember how they tore down some embassies? My, how fast you people forget.....

"Arab" is not synonymous with "Muslim Extremist"

"Arab" is not synonymous with "Terrorist"

... which is exactly why I listed 'Terrorists' separate from Arabs in my original statement.

It's a shame that the media can do such a good job in shaping peoples thoughts in that they automatically link one subject/object to another without even realizing that they're two different things.

And again, this kind of thing happens all the time with the media in news, movies, television et cetera. Cold War anyone? Racial Profiling anyone? They must have it down to a science. Generalized demonization of entire groups of people. Mmmmmm .

As I said before, Arabs have lots of internal conflict, which is probably exacerbated by our involvement. As for the terrorists, extremists, and fundamentalists, that's another set of issues.

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Last edited by Blake on Jul-20-2006 at 17:54

quote:

Originally posted by djy2g33 Yeah, it's definitely 'no reason at all'... sounds about right I guess that they are probably bombing Lebanon for 'no reason at all' too? Really logical thing to say, given that the ones who end up in jails are the ones who end up across the border when trying to execute attacks or the ones who are attacking outposts / soldiers during raids...

have they been tried for any crime? if they haven't and are being held in isralei jails then its for no apparent reason. If they have commited a crime then charge them with it.



What are the palestinians to do excpet carry out "terrorist" acts when the land they have lived on for countless numbers of year are being taken by people who have tanks,and other weapons saying God gave them the land and its their right to live there.

ITs all fucking politics....israel is allowed to have nuclear weapons but no one around isreal can have it. Bull fucking shit. Isreal is allowed to form an army but palestine is not.

Thank God for Iran, and i do hope more and more countires around isreal develop nuclear war heads so the playing feild will be even.

When a country is not able to form and army or have any weapons to defend it self then what will they do? They will defend their land in any way possible. So thats how you get "terrorists" blowing up themselves...what other means do these people have to fight back? they dont have war heads to put in their tanks and fire 40 miles away. They give their own life up to fight for their land. The land that was taken away from them recently.

Wouldn't it be funny if the Native Americans came back with the support of a super power and told americans to move out from parts of the US sice its their land and God gave it to them, its their right to own that land, they had it before the americans came there. What would the US do? Just be a push over as the palestinians were?

You can call the isrealis "terrorists" if you look at it from a lebanese or palestinian prespective.

quote:

Originally posted by Taub have they been tried for any crime? if they haven't and are being held in isralei jails then its for no apparent reason. If they have commited a crime then charge them with it. What are the palestinians to do excpet carry out "terrorist" acts when the land they have lived on for countless numbers of year are being taken by people who have tanks,and other weapons saying God gave them the land and its their right to live there. ITs all fucking politics....israel is allowed to have nuclear weapons but no one around isreal can have it. Bull fucking shit. Isreal is allowed to form an army but palestine is not. Thank God for Iran, and i do hope more and more countires around isreal develop nuclear war heads so the playing feild will be even. When a country is not able to form and army or have any weapons to defend it self then what will they do? They will defend their land in any way possible. So thats how you get "terrorists" blowing up themselves...what other means do these people have to fight back? they dont have war heads to put in their tanks and fire 40 miles away. They give their own life up to fight for their land. The land that was taken away from them recently. Wouldn't it be funny if the Native Americans came back with the support of a super power and told americans to move out from parts of the US sice its their land and God gave it to them, its their right to own that land, they had it before the americans came there. What would the US do? Just be a push over as the palestinians were? You can call the isrealis "terrorists" if you look at it from a lebanese or palestinian prespective.

On the prisoners:
Would you really prefer that they sentence these people to death for a botched suicide bombing? Or how about they are just released so they can try to go bomb the smae place again? Each country has the right to deal with its prisoners of war as needed, and these are exactly prisoners of war... Countries that have to deal with extremist issues like Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey, Jordan all do it... And in the exact same way for the exact same crimes that you don't seem to consider "terrorist"... So it's really not unique to israel... Its what circumstances call for.

On the "blowing themselves up is the only thing they can do"
Somehow throughout the history of time, people have not dealt with things (before they had nuclear weapons) by blowing themselves up (You had kamikaze bombers in the in Japan, but thats a really different situation).... this is pretty much unique to certain regions / religions (I don't even have to say which one)... so what else are they to do? How about civil disobedience? How about diplomatic means? How about developing what you do have so that you can show something for it instead of "blowing yourself up being the only thing they have left to do" as you put it... Blowing yourself up as you put it, is as cowardly a thing as could be and shows a basic disregard/lack of contempt for life... which makes one's case SO plausible for having a place to situate life... and if we're to switch to the reason for this post, um why are we even in this post? Oh yeah, because you go and kidnap other people's soldiers, and its expected that nothing will happen? I've never heard of, throughout any other persecution of any people, anyone doing it in this way... I mean they basically stand out as extreme, neanderthal like, and they make their own case very unplausible, even for Arab nations as I'm sure you've started to notice...

On you hoping more countries are like Iran:
And really smart to say you hope more countries deny factual events, imprison/torture the opposition governments, anduse and abuse other countries (like Lebanon right now) and their people for their own purposes by funding and controlling organizations to fight for them (like Hezbollah)... Oh and more countries that threaten stability by talking of wiping other countries off the map and blatantly trying to develop nuclear weapons (which you don't deny here... but they seem to be denying it quite a bit)... Yeah sounds like we should have more Irans right?

I mean I have my specific opinion on the matter in regards to the Israel issue, but all I have said above is purely general.. I don't think these statements need a specific example even, they are so obvious... Thats more reason why I felt compelled to write a decently lengthy reply

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Last edited by djy2g33 on Jul-20-2006 at 19:55

quote:

Originally posted by Taub have they been tried for any crime? if they haven't and are being held in isralei jails then its for no apparent reason. If they have commited a crime then charge them with it. What are the palestinians to do excpet carry out "terrorist" acts when the land they have lived on for countless numbers of year are being taken by people who have tanks,and other weapons saying God gave them the land and its their right to live there. ITs all fucking politics....israel is allowed to have nuclear weapons but no one around isreal can have it. Bull fucking shit. Isreal is allowed to form an army but palestine is not. Thank God for Iran, and i do hope more and more countires around isreal develop nuclear war heads so the playing feild will be even. When a country is not able to form and army or have any weapons to defend it self then what will they do? They will defend their land in any way possible. So thats how you get "terrorists" blowing up themselves...what other means do these people have to fight back? they dont have war heads to put in their tanks and fire 40 miles away. They give their own life up to fight for their land. The land that was taken away from them recently. Wouldn't it be funny if the Native Americans came back with the support of a super power and told americans to move out from parts of the US sice its their land and God gave it to them, its their right to own that land, they had it before the americans came there. What would the US do? Just be a push over as the palestinians were? You can call the isrealis "terrorists" if you look at it from a lebanese or palestinian prespective.

^^^ That's the way I understand it for the most part.

Growing up and going to school in and around heavily Jewish neighborhoods (UWS) I was definately familliar with their side of the story, but along with independant study I made it a point to also talk to Palestinians, Muslim Arabs, et cetera so that I could get a more full picture of what actually went on.

It is quite a double standard for Israel to be allowed Nukes and no one else. Without means of defense I suppose all the smaller countries can do is sit back and try their best to comply, or be bitched out by larger countries. Of course, the US would probably die before it allowed some of these countries to gain more power and pull than they already have.

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technically israel isnt allowed nukes because although everyone is nearly positive they have nuclear capabilities they have never come out and said so explicitly
they arent allowed to have nukes.pakistan was never allowed to have nukes either. they developed a program.

as for it being unfair israel is occupying palestinian territories, these countries should have thought before they invaded israel in 1967. Israel took this land after all of these arab countries planned to take them off the map. If you lose your land trying to destroy another country you have no right to ask for it back 40 years later.

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quote:

Originally posted by Scolomon as for it being unfair israel is occupying palestinian territories, these countries should have thought before they invaded israel in 1967. Israel took this land after all of these arab countries planned to take them off the map. If you lose your land trying to destroy another country you have no right to ask for it back 40 years later.

a. uhm -- "palestinians" never did anything except get their homes jacked, and certainly weren't mobilizing any armies in '67 (since they didn't have them). even if events had played the way you describe (they didn't), it still doesn't justify anything.

b. books penned by respected israeli historians and published just this year have cast the events of 1967 in an entirely new light; the expansions into gaza, golan, and the west bank were planned since the 1950s(!) and the "surprise" attacks of '67 were anything but. it's fascinating stuff that tears down yet another nationalist myth.

btw: the prisoners whose release hezbollah has demanded were largely individuals rounded up as part of mass sweeps in lebannon.

of course, anyone with half a brain knows that this was has absolutely nothing to do with two kidnapped soldiers...

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quote:

Originally posted by Konijn a. uhm -- "palestinians" never did anything except get their homes jacked, and certainly weren't mobilizing any armies in '67 (since they didn't have them). even if events had played the way you describe (they didn't), it still doesn't justify anything. b. books penned by respected israeli historians and published just this year have cast the events of 1967 in an entirely new light; the expansions into gaza, golan, and the west bank were planned since the 1950s(!) and the "surprise" attacks of '67 were anything but. it's fascinating stuff that tears down yet another nationalist myth. btw: the prisoners whose release hezbollah has demanded were largely individuals rounded up as part of mass sweeps in lebannon. of course, anyone with half a brain knows that this was has absolutely nothing to do with two kidnapped soldiers...

so because they were attacked but not surprised they aren't allowed to take over land from countries attacking them?

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quote:

Originally posted by Konijn btw: the prisoners whose release hezbollah has demanded were largely individuals rounded up as part of mass sweeps in lebannon. of course, anyone with half a brain knows that this was has absolutely nothing to do with two kidnapped soldiers...

The first statement is subjective because I'm sure there are innocent people that were imprisoned that were asked for release but I can also guarantee you that hezbollah or other extremists were asked as part of the release as well.

I'm sure we'll never hear of the specific prisoners asked for release.

Hezbollah never did release the kidnapped soldiers, which were the original demands of Isreal. It would have been interesting to see if all of this could have been avoided like Israel claims if the soldiers were given back.

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quote:

Originally posted by Scolomon so because they were attacked but not surprised they aren't allowed to take over land from countries attacking them?

clearly, things have to be spelled out for you...

a. the palestinians (you know, the people whose land is occupied) never attacked.

b. the israelis instigated army movement from syria and egypt as a pretext to launch "pre-emptive" attacks and occupy gaza and the west bank. this is what the new books i mentioned are all about.

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quote:

Originally posted by Konijn clearly, things have to be spelled out for you... a. the palestinians (you know, the people whose land is occupied) never attacked. b. the israelis instigated army movement from syria and egypt as a pretext to launch "pre-emptive" attacks and occupy gaza and the west bank. this is what the new books i mentioned are all about.

israel instigated egypt's army mobilization to make a preemptive attack?

this sounds like a conspiracy theory to me

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quote:

Originally posted by Taub When a country is not able to form and army or have any weapons to defend it self then what will they do? They will defend their land in any way possible. So thats how you get "terrorists" blowing up themselves...what other means do these people have to fight back? they dont have war heads to put in their tanks and fire 40 miles away. They give their own life up to fight for their land. The land that was taken away from them recently. Wouldn't it be funny if the Native Americans came back with the support of a super power and told americans to move out from parts of the US sice its their land and God gave it to them, its their right to own that land, they had it before the americans came there. What would the US do? Just be a push over as the palestinians were? You can call the isrealis "terrorists" if you look at it from a lebanese or palestinian prespective.

Exactly, "terrorists" is such a buzz word these days. If the word was around in 1776 do you think the British would have called us terrorists?