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| quote: | Originally posted by xfrodobagginsx
Since I don't know what I am talking about that salvation is NOT of the law,could you kindly explain to me what these verses mean? |
Firstly, I'm not arguing that Paul believed salvation is "of the law" (that is, that adherence to the laws alone will find you salvation) and in fact I've been arguing the exact opposite the entire time. To quote myself from earlier:
| quote: | | Paul's argument is that mere adherence to the old Jewish laws is insufficient, in in itself, to win God's favour - this is also the message to be taken from the passages in Romans 3 you posted earlier. We are all in sin and the path out of sin is through the grace of divine spirit. |
What I'm arguing against here is your belief that "we are no longer under the law" or that, with Jesus, all of sudden the old commandments no longer apply. You are welcome to believe this if you want, but - like I have been saying - you won't find support for this in scripture. Paul and Jesus both entreaty their followers to follow the commandments (Mat 5:17-19, 1 Cor 7:19) even if they reject some of the more formal, "preistly" commandments (Luke 6:1-5, 1 Cor 10:25-26).
| quote: | | Please read them all and explain them instead of telling me how ignorant I am. |
I already have and you're repeating yourself. But, just for the fun of it:
| quote: | Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Ro 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. |
Like I said the first time, read to the end of the chapter:
| quote: | | Ro 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. |
What part of this do you not understand? Faith, for Paul, is not something that excuses sin or the failure to "uphold" the law, it's something that delivers us from the "death" of sin in the first place. Paul saw the human body as frail and sick and that the acceptance of the spirit of Christ was the only way to prevent it from sinning. Yet again, I need to stress here that we do not become free from sin because there is no law left to sin against, but rather because the spirit rescues us from the sinful nature of "the flesh". This is all a part of Paul's recurrent theme of dualism between the goodness of spirit and the evil of the body: Paul's moral philosophy can only really be understood in this context.
| quote: | | Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. |
Paul here is contrasting his own apostleship with the apostleship of Peter and James. Peter and James were practicing Jewish Christians and - according to Paul at least (the Epistles of James and Peter are not especially expansive) - Peter was attempting to force gentiles into accepting "Jewish customs" (Gal 2:14) including circumcision, something Paul argued was unnecessary (Gal 6:15). Yet again, when he talks of being "justified" by the faith of Christ, he is arguing that the fastidious obedience to the law (which is what Peter, who Paul opposed "to his face" in Gal 2:11, was preaching) will not "justify" one in the eyes of God.
Yet again, look at the dualism: "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified". This is related to Paul's concept that the body is inclined to sin and that this inclination can only be overcome with the acceptance of Christ. This is explored in depth throughout his letter to the Romans:
| quote: | 1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. |
Romans 8:1-14
There is no abolition of the law or removal of the possibility of sin here, but rather the presentation of a path (namely that of Christ) that one may follow to avoid sin in the first place. Do you understand the distinction?
| quote: | Ga 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Ga 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. |
What Paul sees as the "curse" of the law was outlined in the Galatians passages I quoted a few posts ago. Essentially, none are capable of following the law to letter and in that capacity we are "cursed" to fall short of God's expectations (if there is anything approaching the concept of original sin in Paul's theology then it is this, but it is still a posteriori sin rather than the a priori sin of Catholicism). When he says that Jesus has "redeemed us from the curse of the law", he is saying - as I was arguing above - that faith in Christ gives one a path to avoid sin and to win justification in the eyes of God. The "curse" that one is predestined to sin has been lifted, because acceptance of spirit offers a path out of the "death of sin" - sin being made a curse for us.
| quote: | | Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. |
Read the context of this verse, that I posted above. This passage is referring to the weakness of the flesh and the power of the spirit. Paul is saying that we can fulfill the "righteousness of the law" (i.e. obey it) with the acceptance of Christ, not that belief in Christ obviates the need to observe the law.
| quote: | | Php 3:9 ¶ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: |
Again, this concerns the dualism of flesh and spirit in Paul's theology and how acceptance of the spirit leads to righteousness, the mere obeying of the laws does not.
| quote: | | Ga 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? |
So miracles are an article of faith rather than law? And this is supposed to help your case how?
| quote: | Conclusion:
Do you mean to say that these verses are lying and that you are right? |
It's not a case of the verses "lying" it's a case of understanding what they mean. You are offering a position (that with the death of Jesus the old laws stopped applying) that is not supported by scripture. All you've offered me in the way of proof is a few quotes taken exclusively from the Pauline epistles, showing no respect for the context in which they reside or for Paul's wider philosophy. Indeed, you also seem to be ignoring the rest of New Testement canon.
For instance:
- Jesus says: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
- James says: "Faith without deeds is useless" (James 2:20).
- Peter encourages gentiles to adopt "Jewish customs" (Gal 2:14) and argues that god judges "accoridng to each one's works" (1 Peter 1:17).
- The author of 2 John encourages us to follow in God's commandments (1 John 1:6).
- The author of Revelations says that God judges the dead "out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" (Rev 20:12) and "Blessed are they that do [God's] commandments" (Rev 22:14).
Do you mean to say that these verses are lying and that you are right?
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http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/
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