quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree Same as a DJ playing an effect on a mixer?

not at all. a dj pressing a button to play an effect on a mixer is no different than a kid pressing the a key on his xbox controller to shoot a gun which in turn makes a sound.

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I don't see this as relevant to whether percussionist should be considered a musician.

if you can't see the relevance in this than that is a clear indication that your knowledge of music, in particular structre, theory, and what exactly constitutes music is not anywhere close to where it needs to be in order to even have this discussion.

a few quick questions....

1. Do you play an instrument?
2. Have you ever had any formal musical training?
3. Do you have any knowledge of musical theory or structure? (ie. basic theory...grade 2 etc etc)

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quote:

Originally posted by slingshot not at all.

Hmmm... I think we're having a big difference between whether electronic means qualify as an instrument to the level of traditional instruments are.

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if you can't see the relevance in this than that is a clear indication that your knowledge of music, in particular structre, theory, and what exactly constitutes music is not anywhere close to where it needs to be in order to even have this discussion.

I'm sure a DJ using Ableton can breakdown all the elements of a tune and show each pad, melody, etc just like you can see on an orchestral piece of music.

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a few quick questions.... 1. Do you play an instrument?

Piano for 4 yrs. Flute for 8 yrs.

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2. Have you ever had any formal musical training? 3. Do you have any knowledge of musical theory or structure? (ie. basic theory...grade 2 etc etc)

Piano lessons did incl. a lot of that stuff, plus took music all through junior high to OAC.

Do I qualify?

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by EvilTree Do I qualify?

Yes, you do. And I am completely baffled as to how you can be arguing against me on this.

I ask you this question....

Can you take what a DJ does in a set and explain every single thing through theory and translate that on to paper? IE. score it.


What gets me in discussions like these is just how bad people's misconceptions of how loose music and more so musical structure is. It's not, at all. Music can explained with the same level of presicion that a biologist can explan the inner workings of the human body. EVERYTHING in music has an explanation and place amoungst the structure of music. Pressing buttons on a machine does not adhere to this structure and has no theoretical explanation. Therefore, it is impossible to call an indvidual who presses these buttons a musician.

Keep in mind, i'm speaking entirely in technical terms here. I think what's happening is that alot of people are being mistaken with what the objective definition of a musician is. It's a stupid argument. Why it happens is beyond me because replace the word musician with artist and we're good to go. There is no need to even discuss whether or not a DJ is a musician because you can easily say artist, and the term artist comes with the same amount of acclaim, endearment, respect, and recognition. So many people are debating this subjectively and it's a matter than can be answered in an objective way.

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quote:

Originally posted by slingshot Yes, you do. And I am completely baffled as to how you can be arguing against me on this.

LOL. Just because two doctors have an MD, that doesn't mean they agree on how to treat a patient

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I ask you this question.... Can you take what a DJ does in a set and explain every single thing through theory and translate that on to paper? IE. score it.

Providing that a DJ's set is recorded and used on a program such as Ableton to deconstruct every element, why not?

Or are you talking about how a piece of music is played, such as forte, crescendo and whatnot?
In which case you still can imitate that using EQ and fader on mixer, then deconstruct on Ableton

quote:

What gets me in discussions like these is just how bad people's misconceptions of how loose music and more so musical structure is. It's not, at all. Music can explained with the same level of presicion that a biologist can explan the inner workings of the human body. EVERYTHING in music has an explanation and place amoungst the structure of music. Pressing buttons on a machine does not adhere to this structure and has no theoretical explanation. Therefore, it is impossible to call an indvidual who presses these buttons a musician.

I think you're getting hung up on how much should a pressing buttons on an instrument to produce a single note and do that multiple times to produce a stream of music versus what a DJ does when pressing a button on a CDJ to produce musical sound. It's just pressing a CDJ button produces a complex musical sound that's got multiple layers of sound already.

quote:

Keep in mind, i'm speaking entirely in technical terms here. I think what's happening is that alot of people are being mistaken with what the objective definition of a musician is. It's a stupid argument. Why it happens is beyond me because replace the word musician with artist and we're good to go. There is no need to even discuss whether or not a DJ is a musician because you can easily say artist, and the term artist comes with the same amount of acclaim, endearment, respect, and recognition. So many people are debating this subjectively and it's a matter than can be answered in an objective way.

Ok. So what is your definition of music? A musician?

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by EvilTree

hahahaha, dude...you're just completely throwing things out there. the idea's that you are mentioning are abstract and a stretch at best.

what is my definition of music? please....where on earth are you trying to go with this?

but to answer your question, which in turn supports my argument...my definition of music is exactly what it is....

mu·sic /ˈmyuzɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[myoo-zik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.
2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.
3. musical work or compositions for singing or playing.
4. the written or printed score of a musical composition.

music is a science.

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Originally posted by slingshot hahahaha, dude...you're just completely throwing things out there. the idea's that you are mentioning are abstract and a stretch at best. what is my definition of music? please....where on earth are you trying to go with this?

Eh. Our biggest difference is that you think musician in terms of technical perspective (but I think I've already explained why a DJ should be considered through technical perspective) But I think a musician is more than just technical; it involves abstractness such as creativity as well. (Which I think you're trying to push more towards the realm of artist)

I asked about your definitions because frankly, I'm not exactly sure what are you basing your arguments off of. I've stated my definitions of music and musician.
Since there are multiple definitions of music, if I am to better comprehend your arguments, I need to see from which perspective are you coming from.

edit: Yep. I see your answer.

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

lol at this thread and the huge discussion
a dj is not a musician. A musician is someone who plays a musical instrument and/or produces/composes music. Singers would be musicians also.

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Originally posted by slingshot but to answer your question, which in turn supports my argument...my definition of music is exactly what it is.... mu·sic /ˈmyuzɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[myoo-zik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.

I don't see electronic form being discounted here. Heck, it seems to emphasis creativity aspect of music

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2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.

This also supports my argument, but only if you buy that a DJ's equipment are also considered instruments. (previous posts states my position on this)

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3. musical work or compositions for singing or playing. 4. the written or printed score of a musical composition.

Last two defining what a tune is.

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music is a science.

How can it be science? Science, as I understand it, leaves no room for creativity because it is a systematical approach to a result.

Heck, even your definition uses the word 'art' which is about most un science word I can think of. Art is creative in any form.

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quote:

Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

quote:

Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by EvilTree Eh. Our biggest difference is that you think musician in terms of technical perspective (but I think I've already explained why a DJ should be considered through technical perspective) But I think a musician is more than just technical; it involves abstractness such as creativity as well. (Which I think you're trying to push more towards the realm of artist)

lol, becaues musicican is a term that can be defined technically. music in general is highly technical and therefore the majority of debates can be tackled in an objective matter. you are trying to take objective things and make them subjective. i totally see where you're coming from and compltely understand your views on the subject. in the broad sense of the word, yes, dj's are musicians....but technically speaking it is impossible to agree with this and make this claim. my main goal in this thread was to create awareness that contrary to what many people may think, music is insanely technical. the majority of arguments can be settled by fact. having spent as much time as i have in my life studying music it is almost heartbreaking at times to see many musical issues being discussed in such an ignorant manner.

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Yohan, you're the only person I've come across who repeatedly uses "Heck".

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quote:

Originally posted by EvilTree How can it be science? Science, as I understand it, leaves no room for creativity because it is a systematical approach to a result. Heck, even your definition uses the word 'art' which is about most un science word I can think of. Art is creative in any form.

a-ha...and thus is the beauty of music....it is a perfect fusion of art and science....while the end product is ussually something that can be referred to as a work of art...a scientific approach can be used to explain it.

___________________
We are the kids of the quiet revolution, and we fight for a new quiet concept of evolution. We play house music.

not musicians.

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