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Originally posted by George Smiley No. The international comunity (ie America, EU, Russia, UN) have agreed on various issues they want to see in an end settlement. The right of return is not a requirement. Neither will the issue of some "insignificant swath of land" become a factor as '67 borders are '67 borders (if you get out of them!)

Great I'm glad the "international community" agrees unanimously about that, now what does the international community think about swapping land for land?

After all it is completely impossible to revert to some artificial point in time when there has been 40 years of real facts and emotiosn to change that. Do you think Israelis will trust the Palestinians with the sanctity of their holy sites such as the wailing wall when they have clearly demonstrated in past that they could care less for Jewish places of worship?

Just some stalling points; you see no peace will be a 100% what the international community wants, what the Israelis want, or what the Palestinians want. Therefore I think it is ridiculous to listen to outside players to draw a peace treaty between too rivals.

This would be akin to as you British did 70 odd years ago here by drawing lines in the sand. That didn't help, the international imposing artificial restrictions/agreements won't help. A true agreement can only happen between the two sides. Until there is a Palestinian side to negotiate with there will be no agreement.

Simple as that.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r What are you going on about? BTW do you read your own posts? I answered your question, what's the problem now? You pointed out the Jews specifically when I didn't. It's quite obvious we never went to war 'just for the Jews' which you're trying, for some reason, to point out that I somehow, did. The point, which seemed to have been missed, was that millions of people were killed or wounded for overall holocaust (amoung other things) in general. It's not that nobody cared! They were all too busy trying to appease and Hilter took advantage. Maybe this picture will help... Chamberlain holds the paper containing the resolution to commit to peaceful methods signed by both Hitler and himself on his return from Germany at Heston Airport in September 1938. He said: My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. So don't believe that no one cared, that's just ludicrous...

That whole post is nearly as revelent as your previous one...

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Originally posted by Yoepus Great I'm glad the "international community" agrees unanimously about that, now what does the international community think about swapping land for land?

If that is something the Israelis/Palestinians could agree to then fine, however I suspect the land you'd be swapping would involve large chunks out of the centre of Palestine, serverely disrupting Palestinian life. Yoepus, you're not a religious extremist so why do you feel the need to defend the settlers??

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After all it is completely impossible to revert to some artificial point in time when there has been 40 years of real facts and emotiosn to change that. Do you think Israelis will trust the Palestinians with the sanctity of their holy sites such as the wailing wall when they have clearly demonstrated in past that they could care less for Jewish places of worship?

Would you accept Jerusalem as an international city under the UN?

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Just some stalling points; you see no peace will be a 100% what the international community wants, what the Israelis want, or what the Palestinians want. Therefore I think it is ridiculous to listen to outside players to draw a peace treaty between too rivals. This would be akin to as you British did 70 odd years ago here by drawing lines in the sand. That didn't help, the international imposing artificial restrictions/agreements won't help. A true agreement can only happen between the two sides.

Unfortunately both sides have proved they are not capable of reaching a peace agreement so I'm sorry but it needs to be pressured from outside

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Until there is a Palestinian side to negotiate with there will be no agreement. Simple as that.

I agree 100%. Hamas needs to recognise Israel as the first step. But the PLO recognised Israel and look where that got them...

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Originally posted by George Smiley I'm sorry but that quote from you tells me all I need to know. You're suffering from a severe lack of knowledge about this topic. The PA is pretty much all funded by the EU (and to a lesser extent America) but when Hamas won that funding was stopped (and would start again if Hamas renounce their policy of the destruction of Israel). The PA's politicians, civil servants and public workers are not getting paid. So, yes Palestinians DO care about the international comunity and NO they AREN'T getting their money. In future please dont post if you have no idea what you are talking about. Even if you have an opinion different to mine (which you probably will) make it an informed opinion

IIRC the Arab League (well, some nations in it) said that if EU stopped giving money to PA, they'd step in to fill the gap.

Honestly, do you think other richer anti Israel muslim nations would sit idly and let PA rot when PA is the one really doing anything to harm Israel right now?

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Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

I'm wondering if George smiley has any friends. or life for that matter. His pre-occupation with Israeli/Palestinian conflict is beyond obsessive. This is a person who does not focus all his brainpower and much flaunted-about wisdom on other agendas that may be more pressing and perhaps more likely to bear fruit, such as global warming, aids, fighting cancer or other plights plaguing humanity. No, his obsession is with Jews and his self-established duty to point out all the reasons why they shouldn't exist.

Ok George we get it. You don't like Jews. You don't want them to have their own land, come to think of it - you wouldn't be too sad to see them all just... disappear. Now that we have established that, would you please JUST F*CKING GO AND HANGYOURSELF OR AT LEAST BLOW YOUR BRAINS OUT?

that would be really great. please leave a touching emo story on youtube or myspace. thanks in advance!

parting shot: GEORGE, NONE OF YOUR RAMBLINGS, TRIVIAL FACTS, AND SIMPLY BIASED OBSERVATIONS - THE TRITE SH!TE DRIVEL YOU KEEP ON POSTING HERE WILL EVER CONVINCE ANYONE TO CHANGE THEIR VIEWS. Just accept the fact that it is what it is and you've fought a good fight and now it's time to retire, find a nice and sturdy support beam, get a strong rope and just leave yourself dangling on the end of it. Again, just some suggestions as to how you can REALLY help the world. Just think: by permanently going mere 6 feet inside the earth, you will be giving so much more back to the world than you are right now.

So, don't dismiss the suicide so easily. At least give it a try, ok? Now, go on have a glass of cyanide and go play in traffic. Thanks, now there's a good lad!

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quote:

No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don’t want to die to get there. And yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because Death is very likely the single best invention of Life. It is Life’s change agent. It clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now the new is you, but someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it is quite true.

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Last edited by emc^2 on Jun-08-2007 at 14:26

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Originally posted by emc^2 I'm wondering if George smiley has any friends. or life for that matter. His pre-occupation with Israeli/Palestinian conflict is beyond obsessive. This is a person who does not focus all his brainpower and much flaunted-about wisdom on other agendas that may be more pressing and perhaps more likely to bear fruit, such as global warming, aids, fighting cancer or other plights plaguing humanity. No, his obsession is with Jews and his self-established duty to point out all the reasons why they shouldn't exist. Ok George we get it. You don't like Jews. You don't want them to have their own land, come to think of it - you wouldn't be too sad to see them all just... disappear. Now that we have established that, would you please JUST F*CKING GO AND HANGYOURSELF OR AT LEAST BLOW YOUR BRAINS OUT? that would be really great. please leave a touching emo story on youtube or myspace. thanks in advance! parting shot: GEORGE, NONE OF YOUR RAMBLINGS, TRIVIAL FACTS, AND SIMPLY BIASED OBSERVATIONS - THE TRITE SH!TE DRIVEL YOU KEEP ON POSTING HERE WILL EVER CONVINCE ANYONE TO CHANGE THEIR VIEWS. Just accept the fact that it is what it is and you've fought a good fight and now it's time to retire, find a nice and sturdy support beam, get a strong rope and just leave yourself dangling on the end of it. Again, just some suggestions as to how you can REALLY help the world. Just think: by permanently going mere 6 feet inside the earth, you will be giving so much more back to the world than you are right now. So, don't dismiss the suicide so easily. At least give it a try, ok? Now, go on have a glass of cyanide and go play in traffic. Thanks, now there's a good lad!

Seems you can't read the rules can you. Why don't you leave this forum if you can't handle the trite. You DONT have to read what people post here. Insults and recommendations of suicide, beyond being childish, dont contribute anything and are not even amusing. Take your internet persona back to the CORe.

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Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

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Originally posted by George Smiley If that is something the Israelis/Palestinians could agree to then fine, however I suspect the land you'd be swapping would involve large chunks out of the centre of Palestine, serverely disrupting Palestinian life. Yoepus, you're not a religious extremist so why do you feel the need to defend the settlers??

What do you mean religious extremists? Must "settlers" are sub-urban Jerusalemites who have crossed your artificial 1967 borders due to a common phenomena called "population growth" or "urban sprawl".

I by all means would agree with removing desolate and ridiculous settlements in the middle of no where. The truth of the matter is most "settlements" are part of cities now. Its a very small country.

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Would you accept Jerusalem as an international city under the UN?

The only time I'd ever except anything under the UN was if I was a rouge nation trying to build some weapons.

Why on earth would anyone believe the UN could accomplish anything it is tasked with?

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Unfortunately both sides have proved they are not capable of reaching a peace agreement so I'm sorry but it needs to be pressured from outside

I don't think that is true. I think Israel has and is always willing to make hard compromises for a real peace. However there has never been a real peace prospect. Those countries where there was such a prospect now have peace with Israel.

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I agree 100%. Hamas needs to recognise Israel as the first step. But the PLO recognised Israel and look where that got them...

It got them back from exile so they could start up the terror war and propaganda machine, they created a cult state where the PLO leaders are no reviled as some mythical great founders, and they have also greatly enriched themselves through the opprotunity.

Much better then being in some stinky tent in the middle of Africa in my book.

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quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley That whole post is nearly as revelent as your previous one...

Sorry, if that went over your head; can't help you.

Continue with the blinders...

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Originally posted by EvilTree IIRC the Arab League (well, some nations in it) said that if EU stopped giving money to PA, they'd step in to fill the gap. Honestly, do you think other richer anti Israel muslim nations would sit idly and let PA rot when PA is the one really doing anything to harm Israel right now?

But the EU has stopped funding the PA (when Hamas got elected) and as far as I am aware there has been a severe lack of funds leading to wages not being paid for all walks of public life en mass, which would suggest the Arab countries have failed to come to the Palestinians aid as you suggest (and don't forget, barring Syria, the rest of the Arab states are on side with Israel so the only other source of funding would come from rogue Saudi Princes, Syria or possibly Iran, and I'm not sure they can match the financial clout of the EU and America)

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Sorry, if that went over your head; can't help you. Continue with the blinders...

Shall we just call it quits?!

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Originally posted by Yoepus What do you mean religious extremists? Must "settlers" are sub-urban Jerusalemites who have crossed your artificial 1967 borders due to a common phenomena called "population growth" or "urban sprawl". I by all means would agree with removing desolate and ridiculous settlements in the middle of no where. The truth of the matter is most "settlements" are part of cities now. Its a very small country.

Oh please! You and I both know that the only reason there are settlements are for religious reasons - ie the creation of Greater Israel. Most settlers iirc are right wing Americans!

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The only time I'd ever except anything under the UN was if I was a rouge nation trying to build some weapons. Why on earth would anyone believe the UN could accomplish anything it is tasked with?

Lol! Fair enough but it's slightly different to administer a city than what went off in Iraq etc. Don't forget, there is a reason why it is called the United Nations! Because it is made up of, yep, united nations! America rules the roost (plus the other members of the Security Council) and both Israel and Palestine would be heavily involved in the administration.

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I don't think that is true. I think Israel has and is always willing to make hard compromises for a real peace. However there has never been a real peace prospect. Those countries where there was such a prospect now have peace with Israel.

It's swings and roundabouts I guess. Oslo is often viewed as some monumental offer to the Palestinians as is Camp David (2000), yet both fell very short on offering a viable state the Palestinians which is why they failed.

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It got them back from exile so they could start up the terror war and propaganda machine, they created a cult state where the PLO leaders are no reviled as some mythical great founders, and they have also greatly enriched themselves through the opprotunity.

That's one way of looking at it I guess...

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Much better then being in some stinky tent in the middle of Africa in my book.

Yes indeed but I think you know I was refering to the establishment of an independent Palestinian state!