quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley (I do find it highly amusing how you can say that the overthrowing of a sovereign government by revolutionary means is NOT political!!!)

Be thankful you've not lived my life where such things where a reality of simple survival.

quote:

I just want you to tell me what you think should be done by the UK Muslim community and the UK government (then we'll take the debate from there...)

Spare me the sarcastic vitriol.
Better yet, quit going on about the 90's looking for reasons, hindsight hasn't provided anything definitely conclusive and I simply will not be sidelined from the main argument which centres around the problem in the 00's.
Do not press that issue again, you keep doing it, I keep ignoring it for that reason.
Here's the synopsis of what I've written in abbreviated form so far, I don't even pretend for a minute that this is a solution, because for starters I doubt the widespread adoption of this simply because people don't like to be manipulated away from traditional activity, even if it's for their own good. That and change comes in generations.
The only people who talk about 'solutions' are mathematicians and politicians, only mathematicians will give you a definite solution, politicians only do it to get re-elected on the vain hope people believe it.


1: Learn to share your country with a variety of different lifestyles different to your own. No one is asking you to give up yours, but you are required to accept others for being different and not force yours on them, just like they're not allowed to force theirs on you.

2: People will be different to your own religious/secular lifestyle choice, they as are you are allowed to pursue it, just as you are, within the bounds of the countries legal system.

3: Actively pursue and eliminate those elements of your culture, religion and background who seek to harm and murder others in the name of Jihad or Fatwa's issued to do so. It will not be tolerated by the majority of the community and it will do irreparable harm to the Islamic minority in the country in the long term and runs the risk of civil liberties being curtailed in self defence.

4: Religious law is not above a states constitutional law, provided you do not breach constitutional law you are free to practice those elements of religious law.


You're really trying my patience here with irrelevant arguments, attacks and sarcasm. I find it much more expedient to put people on ignore when they get that irritating, once they are on ignore, they do not ever get removed.
I forewarn you on that at this point.

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Spare me the sarcastic vitriol.

The reason I keep asking is because I can't see the point in complaining about something, and demanding that something change, if you don't even offer an alternative

quote:

Better yet, quit going on about the 90's looking for reasons, hindsight hasn't provided anything definitely conclusive and I simply will not be sidelined from the main argument which centres around the problem in the 00's. Do not press that issue again, you keep doing it, I keep ignoring it for that reason.

Again I'll explain my reason for the comparison - Political Islam has been around throughout the twentieth century, and the UK has had a sizeable Muslim community since the 50s. Yet only in the 00's has the problem of Political Islam emerged. There must be a reason why now and not then. If you don't want to think about that then fine, I won't ask you again, but imo it is a very important factor we have to think about when having the debate we're having right now

quote:

1: Learn to share your country with a variety of different lifestyles different to your own. No one is asking you to give up yours, but you are required to accept others for being different and not force yours on them, just like they're not allowed to force theirs on you. 2: People will be different to your own religious/secular lifestyle choice, they as are you are allowed to pursue it, just as you are, within the bounds of the countries legal system. 3: Actively pursue and eliminate those elements of your culture, religion and background who seek to harm and murder others in the name of Jihad or Fatwa's issued to do so. It will not be tolerated by the majority of the community and it will do irreparable harm to the Islamic minority in the country in the long term and runs the risk of civil liberties being curtailed in self defence. 4: Religious law is not above a states constitutional law, provided you do not breach constitutional law you are free to practice those elements of religious law.

Ok so I guess now we are getting somewhere and have something to debate. My problem with the 4 points you raise is that they are either already happening or are not something that can be enforced (by the government for example). I want Islamist terrorism against my country to stop, and I don't think there is anyway what you write above will work (because it's either currently not working or it is something that we have no power over)

quote:

You're really trying my patience here with irrelevant arguments, attacks and sarcasm. I find it much more expedient to put people on ignore when they get that irritating, once they are on ignore, they do not ever get removed. I forewarn you on that at this point.

Well I don't think any of my arguments are irrelevant (otherwise I would not have made them). I admit I have made personal attacks against you but that is because you seem to be heaping all the blame on the entire Muslim population of the UK (see your 4 points above - they place the onus entirely on the Muslim population) and I just don't think that is a fair analysis. I have lived for the last three years in an area that is mainly Muslim communities (on the outskirts of Leeds) and students. I have never seen (or heard of) any problems because of the large Muslim majority that live there. They are all fully integrated into British society and that is true for the vast majority of UK Muslims. They all fulfil points 1,2 and 4 above and for number 3, well they can only do that if they know any Jihadists in their midst (which seeing as the majority have nothing to do with terrorism is unlikely)

Whoa, lets chill out a bit. Think we need a group hug lol.

But really have to ask is there really anything we can do against it? At the end of the day if you have 1,579,229 muslims in your country (like Britain) and there is a 1 in every 100,000 chance of someone who is a nut case(like having one person in say a city the size of Aberdeen) and chooses to use his religion rather than say... race as a reason to kill can you really stop that?

At that ratio there would be 16 willing suicide bombers in the UK. Ok there are probably more. But as it is there are plenty more nutters in Aberdeen than 1!

I recon a strong border, and tight ties with India and Pakistan are the way to go. Linked with greater social vigilance. To be honest though climate change has me far more scared than terrorism, lets keep perspective.

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.

I say zero tolerance.

If someone has concrete ties to an unwanted element in the country, you get your ass deported without any chance of reprieve or rebuke.

This should go without saying however the current laws obviously don't seem to be cutting it, or the funding isn't enough to sniff those out that are questionable (regardless of country of origin).

The laws coveting this will need to be clearly defined however less people cry fowl regarding civil liberties and invasion of privacy.
A country-wide vote should probably be held regarding this very issue so there is no questioning what was agreed upon by the people.

That's just my 2£

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r If someone has concrete ties to an unwanted element in the country, you get your ass deported without any chance of reprieve or rebuke.

You can't deport a British national from Britain!!!

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Originally posted by George Smiley You can't deport a British national from Britain!!!

True, I haven't really thought about the nationals but then you really can't put them in this category either.

The nationals?
Lock em up, boot camp, community service, there are lots of options that currently exist.
The law of the land still exists for them doesn't it?
On the fringe side, there's always the death penalty...

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r True, I haven't really thought about the nationals but then you really can't put them in this category either. The nationals? Lock em up, boot camp, community service, there are lots of options that currently exist. The law of the land still exists for them doesn't it? On the fringe side, there's always the death penalty...

Well no, there's not the death penalty. And we have introduced new Anti-Terrorism laws where nationals/aliens can be jailed/deported for links to terrorism (including inciting killing others). The laws you want are already in place (along with the predicted protests from the civil liberty groups) yet we still face this threat.

I guess it's like crime - the politicians and public can argue and complain as much as they want about how we don't have enough policemen or jails to deal with crime, but at the end of the day, unless you can identify and eliminate the causes of crime no number of new laws, restrictions of civil liberties, numbers of policemen of jails will ever make it go away...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley I want Islamist terrorism against my country to stop, and I don't think there is anyway what you write above will work (because it's either currently not working or it is something that we have no power over)

Muslim anti-terror campaign
Hope to see more of this, it's going to be greatly needed if any sense of social harmony is to be maintained.

quote:

Originally posted by Dervish I recon a strong border, and tight ties with India and Pakistan are the way to go. Linked with greater social vigilance. To be honest though climate change has me far more scared than terrorism, lets keep perspective.

I don't know about tighter ties with India and Pakistan, I think if anything the UK needs is it's own identity which embraces multiculturalism past the token lip service and by-laws as a result which are taken advantage of by individuals for their own personal gain and profit.
But like I said before, things like heart disease and being mashed by a bus crossing the road are a far more critical health concern than being immolated in an airport by an Islamist extremist. And they're all preventable or able to be reduced in terms of personal danger, I still find it ironic though noting in the past in the actual topics I've made about health here in the PDD, that they receive very little attention. People seem to find the subject of death by violence and chance however remote they may be affected by it a far more interesting topic than what will actually statistically kill them.

Think I'm done for now, I've chucked in a 14hr day at work and too tired.

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Originally posted by Lilith Muslim anti-terror campaign Hope to see more of this, it's going to be greatly needed if any sense of social harmony is to be maintained.

Yep very encouraging (tho I've never heard of Muslims United or have been able to find anything out about them but if they are putting those adverts in the national press then great). Still, this message has been preached by moderate Muslims since 9/11 and we've still been bombed so there is obviously still other things we need to do to further protect the UK...

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About 1,500 people have gathered in Glasgow for a rally against terrorism, organised by Mosques and Islamic groups.

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'Community cohesion' Meanwhile, the "Scotland United Against Terror" event was held in George Square. Organisers said the day was doubly significant as it was the second anniversary of the London Tube bombings and one week after the Glasgow attack. Faith leaders, churches and trade unionists were among those at the event, and Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon spoke to the crowd.

>BBC NEWS<

All progress really, maybe in a strange way the attacks will lead to better links? Well at least at a certain level of society. We all know the 'lower' end are hard to convince.

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If you can read this, I'm seriously fucking bored.