quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex What's laughable is calling Mudvayne or Sevendust heavy metal. What's downright shameful is calling Rammstein metal at all. (They're industrial, by the way.)

Ok, I'm not too sure there I'll admit; what bands would you call "heavy metal" then?

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex [Progressive house] is pretty much as you described: subtle transitions, dark moods, slow builds, boring and repetitive. Essentially, it tries to be proper trance without being proper trance. But just because [progressive house] means this doesn't mean [progressive] refers to the same concept.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex Can we agree on this, or are you going to continue being contrary for the sake of self-aggrandisement?

Agree on this? Yes of course! What you just said is what I've been bloody saying all along! When I say “progressive”, I’m assuming that there will be a genre whacked on the back, such as “trance” or “house”, as the term can relate to many styles of music, just like when you say “hardcore” it could relate to three or four different genres that are grouped under that umbrella.

I think this thread may be just one big misunderstanding. Over here, when we say "progressive" or "prog", it's synonymous with the term "progressive house", UNLESS you specifically attach a genre on the back i.e "progressive breaks". We say "prog" all the time. I.e "This song is proggy", or "I went to a great prog night last week".

I’m disappointed that you think progressive house is boring, but as always, one man’s trash is another’s treasure.

By the way, I’m not being self aggrandising, I’m simply trying to have a proper discussion (though aggressive) about music, which I sorely miss on internet forums these days.

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Last edited by Domesticated on Aug-08-2007 at 07:21

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog Ok, I'm not too sure there I'll admit; what bands would you call "heavy metal" then?

Styx, Blue Oyster Cult, Metallica, Kiss. Bands that focused on high musical standards and musical proficiency, not on trying to make the most unmusical sounds possible with the human vocal tract.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog Agree on this? Yes of course! What you just said is what I've been bloody saying all along! When I say "progressive", I'm assuming that there will be a genre whacked on the back, such as "trance" or "house", as the term can relate to many styles of music, just like when you say "hardcore", it could relate to three or four different genres that are grouped under that umbrella.

Then you haven't agreed at all. If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that [[progressive] house] = [progressive house], which is exactly the opposite of what SystemJ and I are saying, and which, incidentally, is absolutely false.

Case in point: progressive psytrance. It couldn't possibly be named for the slow development and subtle transitions, as that much is already covered by [-trance]. So what does [progressive] mean in this case? It means that the genre receives a great deal of influences from house, tribal, techno and so-called prog.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog p.s we say "prog" all the time. I.e "This song is proggy", or "I went to a great prog night last week".

[Prog], in this case, is a noun to describe probably the most offensive genre of all: the one that is so ambiguous that it can't even decide if it's house, techno or trance. [Proggy] is the adjective associated with this noun, and has no relation to the adjective, [progressive].

Now, this may cause you to ask, "What about calling 'progressive psy,' 'progpsy'?" The answer is that, due to bandwagoners jumping aboard, a genre based on psy with tribal, techno, house and prog influences has formed, and instead of being creative, the bandwagoners did the exact same thing you're doing, and said, [[progressive] psytrance] = [progressive psytrance]. The evidence is that [progpsy] is one word, orthographically.

I just hope people don't take this to mean that the "prog" in "progpsy" refers to bullshit like "progressive structures."

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quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex Styx, Blue Oyster Cult, Metallica, Kiss. Bands that focused on high musical standards and musical proficiency, not on trying to make the most unmusical sounds possible with the human vocal tract.

???

Mudvayne is pretty poor "singing" for sure, but, in my opinion, Sevendust far outweighs Metallica in all ways when it comes to singing; they don't do much screaming or carrying on at all.

Rammstein is just guttural because it's in German, a lot of their singing is actually ok too; "Stripped" is an example.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex Case in point: progressive psytrance. It couldn't possibly be named for the slow development and subtle transitions, as that much is already covered by [-trance]. So what does [progressive] mean in this case? It means that the genre receives a great deal of influences from house, tribal, techno and so-called prog.

No, I still think that progressive psy-trance is more subtle than regular psy-trance, and differentiated from [-trance] by a normal psy bassline, and a darker/weider feel.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex [Prog], in this case, is a noun to describe probably the most offensive genre of all: the one that is so ambiguous that it can't even decide if it's house, techno or trance. [Proggy] is the adjective associated with this noun, and has no relation to the adjective, [progressive].

I think you need to go back to do maths rather than rambling about the difference between [progressive house] or [[progressive] house], because the inclusion of an extra set of brackets means absolutely nothing meaningful. Are you trying to say that the word "progressive" can have two meanings? If the answer is yes, then you're agreeing both with the side that says it means "cutting edge", and the side that says it's a structural/atmospheric thing.

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quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog ??? Mudvayne is pretty poor "singing" for sure, but, in my opinion, Sevendust far outweighs Metallica in all ways when it comes to singing; they don't do much screaming or carrying on at all. Rammstein is just guttural because it's in German, a lot of their singing is actually ok too; "Stripped" is an example.

I'll admit, then to never having actually heard much Sevendust, but the fact that you continue to assert that Rammstein is metal makes me question how much you really know about metal (or industrial) in the first place. I'm only going to say this once more: Rammstein is not metal.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog No, I still think that progressive psy-trance is more subtle than regular psy-trance, and differentiated from [-trance] by a normal psy bassline, and a darker/weider feel.

More subtle than full-on, for sure, but that's shortchanging the rest of the genre if full-on is all you know about. Atmos was making incredibly subtle psy-trance in the late 90's, years before progressive psy was even an idea. Furthermore, progpsy tends away from the psy bassline as one of many actual distinguishing factors of the genre, and to assert that trance is not "weird" or "dark" is to deny the genre's history.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog I think you need to go back to do maths rather than rambling about the difference between [progressive house] or [[progressive] house], because the inclusion of an extra set of brackets means absolutely nothing meaningful. Are you trying to say that the word "progressive" can have two meanings? If the answer is yes, then you're agreeing both with the side that says it means "cutting edge", and the side that says it's a structural/atmospheric thing.

I think you need to study up on semantic arguments before you get yourself into one. You'd also do well to learn the difference between semantics and maths. I'm saying that [progressive house] is a lexical entry in itself. In laymen's terms, it is one word. [[progressive] house], while ambiguous in pronunciation, is represented in my argument as one lexical entry modifying another.

Thus, I am agreeing with you that [progressive house] means what you say it means. However, I'm also saying (and now repeating, because I can only assume you didn't read it the first time) that in the context of the original question, your answer is incorrect, because the question asked only about the adjective, [progressive].

Unless by "progressive house," he means the bandwagon shite, in which case this is an unfortunate misunderstanding.

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quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog No, I still think that progressive psy-trance is more subtle than regular psy-trance, and differentiated from [-trance] by a normal psy bassline, and a darker/weider feel.

Progressive Psy is most defenitly called progressive psy for the gradual buildup (not future/different anyway). It may have more varience in styles but I'd like to see a fast Progpsy song that doesnt have the gradual buildup.


Juno Reactor (although you might call them Goa but they are still pretty similar) could be said to be furthering the Psy/Goa genre (there most defenitly is a difference but lets not go into that atm) however THEY are most defenitly not Progpsy/Prog goa.

Anyone else agree with the guy that said Progpsy is "furthering/expanding" the Psytrance/Goa Genre?

Sure Tegma/vibrasphere/other falls under Progpsy but that's hardly reason to say the genre is especially furthering/expanding Psy/Goa.

Case in point: If Progpsy ment future Psy then Infected Mushroom and Juno Reactor would fall under Progressive Psy... they most defenitly do not however due to their structure (although Juno Reactor don't generally do the standard Psytrance/Goa Structure either sometimes)

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Last edited by Darkarbiter on Aug-08-2007 at 09:23

quote:

Originally posted by Darkarbiter Progressive Psy is most defenitly called progressive psy for the gradual buildup (not future/different anyway). It may have more varience in styles but I'd like to see a fast Progpsy song that doesnt have the gradual buildup.

This, of course, couldn't possibly be because its, you know, trance.

Juno Reactor is certainly progressive psy in the sense of progressive being an adjective. The thing is, they don't always go with the slow, tribal, housey dark sounds of progpsy. JR is too varied to be pigeonholed into anyone genre, really.

Infected Mushroom isn't progpsy because they're cheesy, and really don't do anything new.

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quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex Thus, I am agreeing with you that [progressive house] means what you say it means. However, I'm also saying (and now repeating, because I can only assume you didn't read it the first time) that in the context of the original question, your answer is incorrect, because the question asked only about the adjective, [progressive]. Unless by "progressive house," he means the bandwagon shite, in which case this is an unfortunate misunderstanding.

I'd worded up a big aggressive response, then I realised that you'd actually said something sensible.

Here's where the confusion lies:

Over here, to my friends and I, and pretty much everyone I know, the term "progressive" is both an adjective, a noun and a genre name. This can be shortened to "prog" or "proggy"(adjective) with no change in meaning.

If someone says "what genre is this song", by saying "progressive", 9 times out of 10, that would mean "progressive house".

However, if the song was obviously trance, and you said "progressive", then that's the word acting as an adjective, describing the trance music as being "progressive", comprende?

To us, "progressive" as an adjective, noun, or genre name doesn't mean "cutting edge", it means it has a more repetitive, subtle, deeper, entrancing, atmospheric sound to it, hence why it can be wacked on the front of any genre name and add meaning to it. i.e "atmospheric trance", "subtle house", "entrancing techno".

In a nutshell, pretty much as John Digweed described it:

quote:

Originally posted by blacknoizybox "progressive" + [genre] = usually means a more (more than pure [genre]) moody deeeeep bass, complex percussions, loads of reverb and fx, less catchy melody, long transitions, small hardly-noticed changes in percussion and structure throughout the track. progressive, to me personally, is more relevant to feeling a state of trance due to the repeatance and monotony of the progressive sound(which is a good thing)

I have no more to say on this subject.

Can I just say, I have NO idea what you're talking about when you say "this rubbishy bandwagon crap" in relation to prog house, because most of it is so deep, with hardly any vocals and hardly any catchy hooks, that it will pretty much never be popular for the masses.

Example of a prog house track I like at the moment: DJ Remy & Roland Klinkenberg - Mexico Can Wait

p.s every time I see this thread, it pisses me off that some retard couldn't just go back and correct his own spelling. "progressice".

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quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex I'll admit, then to never having actually heard much Sevendust, but the fact that you continue to assert that Rammstein is metal makes me question how much you really know about metal (or industrial) in the first place. I'm only going to say this once more: Rammstein is not metal.

...and KISS is?

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this thread needs more ishkur

it mean nothing at all

quote:

Originally posted by iamtehsuck this thread needs more ishkur

Here you go:

everything is fucked

the scene is fucked

everyone's fucked.

The culture is fucked.

The attitude is fucked

The Djs are fucked

The producers today are fucked

No-one cares anymore, It's all about the money

WHAAA! WHAA! WHAA! I am more knowledgable than any of you about the scene, therefore, I am right about everything and my hyper-cynicism is completely factual and based on reality. I will continue to judge and label, as opposed to percieving and understanding.

I will not discuss or consider the impact of government regulations and rave laws etc. etc etc. on the scene and how it's affected the EDM scene.

quote:

Originally posted by thoughtlessjex This, of course, couldn't possibly be because its, you know, trance. Juno Reactor is certainly progressive psy in the sense of progressive being an adjective.

What about that track: SAmurai? That's by Juno Reactor isn't it?

Would you still call that Progressive psy (in the noun sense: Ie Genre) (maybe adjective?)?

(BTW, I love that track.)

Last edited by Abhay on Aug-09-2007 at 02:02