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Originally posted by The Arbiter So logically, you attain this by killing civilian's. w00tness. Sorry, I don't buy it. This is deeper than a simple power struggle, alot of people who have no real affect on the power struggle are dying and the only logical (If you can really call it that) reason for killing them is differences in belief.

As you can see, I have right from the start not denied the fact a power struggle is taking place. However, I said it was deeper than that. Your trying to claim I am somehow denying all reason and logic and claiming power isnt an issue at all, which I have never even implied let alone said specifically.

I was going to make a word for word reply to your post but then I realised that if I did that, I would remove the focus from the point at hand, which you have appeared to dodge completely, the specific military goal's of these factions being civilian slaughter of religious sect's.

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Originally posted by George Smiley That's just simply not true. You're suggesting their end game is to kill non-Muslims - rubbish. Their aim is to implement a political ideology which, counter to your belief, enshrines the rights of Christians and Jews within that society (albeit with less rights than Muslims)

As you can see, I am not making shit up. You did cite religious unity as one of their political goal's and this is what I have been arguing against the whole time. DO NOT mug me off, telling me I dont know what Im not about when you can't even remember your own posts.

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Dont expect profoundness so much as relentless and pathological destruction.

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Originally posted by The Arbiter As you can see, I have right from the start not denied the fact a power struggle is taking place. However, I said it was deeper than that. Your trying to claim I am somehow denying all reason and logic and claiming power isnt an issue at all, which I have never even implied let alone said specifically.

How is it "deeper" than any other power struggle between two competing groups, religious or not?

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I was going to make a word for word reply to your post but then I realised that if I did that, I would remove the focus from the point at hand, which you have appeared to dodge completely, the specific military goal's of these factions being civilian slaughter of religious sect's.

The point at hand?! That's rich coming from someone who turned a debate about the British Muslim community into an argument over the conflict in Iraq! Just what, exactly, has the civil war between the various groups in Iraq got to do with the Muslim community i the UK?!

But I'll humour you...you say that the aim of these factions is the extermination of the other side. No, the targetting of civilians is not unique to any conflict of this kind. You're suggesting that it is because they are Muslim that they are targetting civilians - a load of shit. I asked you to comment on Lebanon, yet you ignore it (presumably because you know even less about that than you do about Iraq). Hatred between two competing groups and the targetting of civilians is nothing unique to Iraq - look at Northern Ireland

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As you can see, I am not making shit up. You did cite religious unity as one of their political goal's and this is what I have been arguing against the whole time. DO NOT mug me off, telling me I dont know what Im not about when you can't even remember your own posts.

"Mug"? What are you? Some cockney wannabe football hooligan?! LOL!

I don't think I've ever said the goal of the Iraqi militias are "religious unity". You're confusing what I said about one of the goals about Political Islam being the creation of a unified Islamic state in the Middle East. But this is a Sunni ideology. The Shiites also have their equivalent ideology, like Hizballah and Iran. What we're seeing in Iraq is the battle between Shiites, Sunnis and secular Baathists all competing for power in a specific country, nothing to do with the wider aims of the Islamist ideology.

There is, IMO, no difference between what is happening in Iraq and what happened during the civil war in Lebanon...

So I'll ask you again, what makes Iraq any different to Lebanon???

I've already explained all of this. They say the person who resort's to flame's fails, y'know.

Stop asking about Lebanon for fucks sake, it wasnt even a civil war and this debate is already on the vurge of derailment without getting into an argument about Israel.

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Dont expect profoundness so much as relentless and pathological destruction.

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Originally posted by The Arbiter I've already explained all of this. They say the person who resort's to flame's fails, y'know. Stop asking about Lebanon for fucks sake, it wasnt even a civil war and this debate is already on the vurge of derailment without getting into an argument about Israel.

Erm, I'm talking about the Lebanese civil war, which was, by all accounts, a civil war!

You're trying to tell me, if I understand you correctly (which I don't know if I do cos I'm not convinced you know entirely what your point is), that it is a characteristic unique to Muslims to target civilians that are different to them, in this case, religion.

If that is what you are trying to tell me, then the Lebanese civil war disproves that point of view beyond all reasonable doubt...which is why I ask you to comment on it

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Originally posted by George Smiley And Christians call others "heathens" and Jews call others "gentiles" What's your point?

That example isn't even close.

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"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r That example isn't even close.

It's irrelevant as it doesn't take anything away from my point

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Originally posted by George Smiley Erm, I'm talking about the Lebanese civil war, which was, by all accounts, a civil war! You're trying to tell me, if I understand you correctly (which I don't know if I do cos I'm not convinced you know entirely what your point is), that it is a characteristic unique to Muslims to target civilians that are different to them, in this case, religion. If that is what you are trying to tell me, then the Lebanese civil war disproves that point of view beyond all reasonable doubt...which is why I ask you to comment on it

No, that isnt my point. Hell, I can't even make a point anymore because you don't appear to have any point at all. All I can see is contradictions and a statement which claims what I was retorting against didnt even happen, despite my quoting it. This argument is circular and as I hate circular arguments, over.

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Dont expect profoundness so much as relentless and pathological destruction.

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Originally posted by The Arbiter No, that isnt my point. Hell, I can't even make a point anymore because you don't appear to have any point at all. All I can see is contradictions and a statement which claims what I was retorting against didnt even happen, despite my quoting it. This argument is circular and as I hate circular arguments, over.

Ok lets simplify things, can you just explain what your point is again as I agree this appears to be going nowhere and I'm not too sure the point you're trying to make...

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Originally posted by The Arbiter It's also worth noting that the majority of the Christian organisation's do not aggressively convert in this manor.

That is more wrong. You should see these missionaries at work in Africa and Asia. They poach other religion. People who make a successful killing are rewarded with a free air ticket to Vatican and 3+ months long stay their. They (priest, dean, father or whatever you call them) are promoted to higher level and is even monetorily rewarded for his game. Sucessfull strategies like the one example I gave you before are duplicated all around the world. Christians organisations mojorly act in this manor and they are very aggressive, aggressive to point where its difficult for other religions to stay mum and just watch it.

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Also one more point I wanted to make.. you always see these missionaries targeting the the basic root level.. that is small children and baby boomer mothers.. you will not find that many old age homes run by missionaries cos whats the point in converting/investing so much on an old poor guy when he is just going to die in few years..

You will see many Christian schools and colleges offering basically free eduction if you are christian.. than you will find many 'nursing homes' where a pregnant mom can give birth to another christian at no medical cost if you are them. They will give free vaccines to christian kids.. Than you will find churches offering free day meal 'after small little prayer' to kids.. they woudnt care if an old guy is dying outside.

These missionaries are more like corporations with Vatican their head office.. rather than charitable organisation working independantly..

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Originally posted by George Smiley It's irrelevant as it doesn't take anything away from my point

Hardly considering there's no mordern day equvalient to Dhimmi other than slavery and oppresion.

And if there is, by all means, point it out.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Hardly considering there's no mordern day equvalient to Dhimmi other than slavery and oppresion. And if there is, by all means, point it out.

You're inventing your own argument to argue against. It's called a straw man. I was responding to someone who claimed Islamist ideology promotes the extermination of non-Muslims. The very fact that the notion of "dhimmi" exists at all in Islamist ideology proves my point. Please try to pay more attention to what people actually say, rather than inventing them in your mind, then we won't have this confusion will we?