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Originally posted by Krypton Have you not been watching what the bush admin has been doing with this war on terror? The Patriot Act? Domestic spying? Verizon and AT&T helping warrentless wiretapping? Where have you been?

Now you're changing the subject though - you referred to the war in Iraq, not the Patriot Act, which is indeed an infringement on civil liberties. So yes, I'm familiar with those things, but you did not bring them up in your original argument.

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If gays want new civil rights, not just them have to want it. The majority of the voters have to want it. The point is the atmosphere for debating gay rights is not favorable for those who want them. War is the reason why.

Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg Poll. Oct. 19-22, 2007. N=1,039 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"Which of the following statements comes closest to your view? Same-sex couples should be allowed to legally marry. OR, Same-sex couples should be allowed to legally form civil unions, but not marry. OR, Same -sex couples should not be allowed to either marry or form civil unions."

10/19-22/07
Marry: 30%
Form Civil Unions: 26%
Neither: 38%
Unsure: 6%

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Ok, fine. Get voters out in good enough numbers to vote in favor or gay rights. You don't get what I'm saying. Do you think voters right now are in any mode to clamor for gay rights? No.

Who are you to judge what the important issues are for any particular voter? Just because you care about the Iraq War and vast financial conspiracies does not mean that is the hot-button issue for everyone. The Family Values people are seriously considering not supporting the nomination of Rudy or Mitt based on their stand on abortion and civil unions, and yet that is not an influential election issue? Says who? The issues that are in sharp focus are cyclical - lest you forget that John Kerry lost the 2004 election as a direct result of civil union amendments being on multiple state ballots in contested states like Ohio. It's an issue that brings people out to vote en masse, and we're still suffering the consequences of it.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg Poll. Oct. 19-22, 2007. N=1,039 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3. "Which of the following statements comes closest to your view? Same-sex couples should be allowed to legally marry. OR, Same-sex couples should be allowed to legally form civil unions, but not marry. OR, Same -sex couples should not be allowed to either marry or form civil unions." 10/19-22/07 Marry: 30% Form Civil Unions: 26% Neither: 38% Unsure: 6% Who are you to judge what the important issues are for any particular voter? Just because you care about the Iraq War and vast financial conspiracies does not mean that is the hot-button issue for everyone.

finally something i can agree with.
thanks for the poll too

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Here Kitty, Kitty ..

Mikey Terra Inc <3

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Now you're changing the subject though - you referred to the war in Iraq, not the Patriot Act, which is indeed an infringement on civil liberties. So yes, I'm familiar with those things, but you did not bring them up in your original argument.

Well, now you know what I was referring to..

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Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg Poll. Oct. 19-22, 2007. N=1,039 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3. "Which of the following statements comes closest to your view? Same-sex couples should be allowed to legally marry. OR, Same-sex couples should be allowed to legally form civil unions, but not marry. OR, Same -sex couples should not be allowed to either marry or form civil unions." 10/19-22/07 Marry: 30% Form Civil Unions: 26% Neither: 38% Unsure: 6%

AND? I have yet to hear one presidential candidate even mention gay rights. Repeat this poll across america, not just LA, and you will not find a ubiquitous support or even a care about gay rights. And my point is, Iraq is the defining issue of today, not gay rights.

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Who are you to judge what the important issues are for any particular voter? Just because you care about the Iraq War and vast financial conspiracies does not mean that is the hot-button issue for everyone. The Family Values people are seriously considering not supporting the nomination of Rudy or Mitt based on their stand on abortion and civil unions, and yet that is not an influential election issue? Says who? The issues that are in sharp focus are cyclical - lest you forget that John Kerry lost the 2004 election as a direct result of civil union amendments being on multiple state ballots in contested states like Ohio. It's an issue that brings people out to vote en masse, and we're still suffering the consequences of it.

I am not judging the important issues for voters. I'm telling you what the main issue most voters are focused on. Today, that is Iraq. I really don't know why you won't accept that..

I think the solution, until there is a focus on the issue, is to give states the right to decide for themselves. Federal government should not be involved. Each state should decide on its own over the issue. No constitutional amendments, no legalization on the federal level is appropriate in my opinion.

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im glad my points were totally ignored.

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Here Kitty, Kitty ..

Mikey Terra Inc <3

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Originally posted by Krypton Well, now you know what I was referring to..

You never once mentioned it! How could I possibly derive the Patriot Act from your reference to Iraqis being killed overseas?

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AND? I have yet to hear one presidential candidate even mention gay rights. Repeat this poll across america, not just LA, and you will not find a ubiquitous support or even a care about gay rights.

This is how polling works - it is sponsored by a certain group (The LATimes in this case), conducted by a national polling agency (Bloomsberg in this case), and uses nation-wide sampling to create an idea of what the national sentiment on a particular issue is. So that was a national poll that reflects that this country is deeply divided on the idea of gay marriage/civil unions. I'm sorry that wasn't clear.

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And my point is, Iraq is the defining issue of today, not gay rights.

It's very naive to think that only one issue matters in an election cycle. Very naive. If Iraq were the defining issue of this election, than Giuliani, who supports this Administration's policy, would be nowhere near a frontrunner when 50% of his own party disagrees with how the war is being conducted. It is pretty obvious that political support is garnered for a variety of issues.

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I am not judging the important issues for voters. I'm telling you what the main issue most voters are focused on. Today, that is Iraq. I really don't know why you won't accept that..

This whole argument started because you criticized barbina for staking importance to the issue of gay rights!!! You told her that the war in Iraq should be more important to her. That's what our disagreement is over, not whether more Americans are concerned about Iraq or civil unions, which is kind of a moot point!

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I think the solution, until there is a focus on the issue, is to give states the right to decide for themselves. Federal government should not be involved. Each state should decide on its own over the issue. No constitutional amendments, no legalization on the federal level is appropriate in my opinion.

And why? Is marriage a civil right in some states but not others? You're the libertarian here, not me.

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Originally posted by barbina im glad my points were totally ignored.

I didn't comment on them because I agree with them and thought they stand pretty well on their own.

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Originally posted by barbina im glad my points were totally ignored.

Nobodies ignored your points. I rather agree with you. I'm just saying we have bigger issues that need to be taken care of before voters will come out in numbers large enough to lobby for gay rights.

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It's very naive to think that only one issue matters in an election cycle. Very naive. If Iraq were the defining issue of this election, than Giuliani, who supports this Administration's policy, would be nowhere near a frontrunner when 50% of his own party disagrees with how the war is being conducted. It is pretty obvious that political support is garnered for a variety of issues.

How is Iraq not the defining issue is my question to you..

What issue is more important than the Iraq war and war on terror. I'm not saying nothing else is important, I'm saying they are defining issues that take precedent over all others. I really don't know how war is ever NOT the defining issue of any country involved in a large scale operation.

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This whole argument started because you criticized barbina for staking importance to the issue of gay rights!!! You told her that the war in Iraq should be more important to her. That's what our disagreement is over, not whether more Americans are concerned about Iraq or civil unions, which is kind of a moot point!

Well, hmm. People dying over there because of a war, nobody dying over here because they don't have marriage rights. Which one is more important? Obviously, there are much more pressing issues that I believe should be resolved, before we focus on social issues. How can we fix our social woes if we're fighting wars, spending billions on weapons, instead of our own society. That's my point.

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And why? Is marriage a civil right in some states but not others? You're the libertarian here, not me.

I believe states should decide things such as drug decriminalization, gay rights, and similar issues. I don't believe the federal government should be involved in legislating society. Sometimes, there needs to be comprimise. State power can be one way of comprimising on gay rights, and slowly over time, states might change their law to make it favorable for gay rights. It can't just happen overnight. I do believe that under the guarentee of liberty by the constitution, gives gays the right to claim marraige rights. I agree with barbina!!

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Originally posted by Krypton I rather agree with you.

wtf? whats with the pretence of limited government at all costs Mr. Originalist?

what would Ron Paul say?

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Originally posted by barbina I think whats going on at home is a hell of a lot more important than whats going on overseas. You're obviously straight, so this argument doesn't hit close to home for you. Maybe its because your rights aren't being denied directly, only people you know. People may not be dying for gay rights but equality is a given right, a promised right. And thats something the US fights wars for so how is this any different? You don't need a war for change..or have you forgotten about movements like those for women's rights and inter-racial marriages/schools/towns.I honestly don't see the difference. So yes, this is more important than the war in Iraq, or immigration, or damn taxes.

Look, my sister is a lesbian and she has had the same gf for over a year. I can tell you from experience that it is disgusting to have homesexuals under the same roof.
But, really gay rights are not want is making this country into a shithole. It has to be that many times I go out to the movies, I am always asked to show my ID. Once when I was 20, my sis and I went to the an early movie show and were refused to watch the film because we weren't over the age of 21. My sister had forgotten to bring her ID so the lady rejected us. Also, we give moron's the right to enforce laws that they break all the time. I am talking about police offficers. The government hires only two type of people. Really smart ones or really stupid ones. They do this so that the smart ones move up and the stupid ones stay at the menial jobs. Sadly, the stupid ones have moved into the senate, congress and even our white house.
This whole stupid people taking over our system has been ruining the American society because stupid people don't want less of a government, they want a bigger government to hold their hand. Our biggest threat comes from an ever expanding government believe it or not. Moving to Canada won't change anything. You still will be left unhappy because guess what? People there are homophoebic too. You don't have every Canadian waving gay flags, do you? No.

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Originally posted by Q5echo wtf? whats with the pretence of limited government at all costs Mr. Originalist? what would Ron Paul say?

Pretext? The same reason why we had a revolution in the 1770's.

Ron Paul would agree with me. With liberty being a guarenteed birth-right, if gays want to be married, then let them get married. They are not violating anyone elses rights. No crime is being committed.

As for state's rights, it would be much easier for individual states to decide the gay rights issue than for the federal government to do so.

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Originally posted by Krypton As for state's rights, it would be much easier for individual states to decide the gay rights issue than for the federal government to do so.

If it is a right protected under the Constituion, what needs to be decided? This is where I lose your "stick to the Constitution" argument.

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Originally posted by Krypton How is Iraq not the defining issue is my question to you..

I'm not denying that Iraq is a tremendously important issue for a great many voters. I'm simply trying to point out that for some, it is not the only defining issue of this campaign.

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What issue is more important than the Iraq war and war on terror. I'm not saying nothing else is important, I'm saying they are defining issues that take precedent over all others. I really don't know how war is ever NOT the defining issue of any country involved in a large scale operation.

Again, I agree in principle (I'm a student of foreign policy after all), but you have to look at it from the perspective of how individual issues impact individual people. If you were gay, gay marriage would matter a great deal to you, as it would to myself.

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