quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov How did this steaming pile of a thread end up in our laps?

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatniko

Not sure. Some mod must of thought it would be funny to drop it here. Also, why did you drop the V from your name?

___________________
Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome

quote:

Originally posted by venomX Also, why did you drop the V from your name?

Swamper pwned me.

___________________

This is an interesting listen. Interview with an independent investigative journalist.


http://www.guba.com/watch/300010397...tep=0&fields=23


Also, I don't know if anyone knows about this, but a couple days ago, at the National Diet of Japan Councilor Yukihisa Jukita of the democratic party of Japan questioned 9/11 in front of the Prime Minister.

Here is a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1WkfkvkX2E

This is huge.

Also, you ALL need to checkout http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8cC...feature=related

Last edited by toolman667 on Jan-17-2008 at 23:09

quote:

Originally posted by toolman667 This is huge.

give me one reason this is in any way, "huge". haha. look mate, the 9/11 movement is nothing. inconsequential. meaningless. get it?

there are a few hundred morons across the globe that have been fooled by all the intellectual dishonesty.

there will only ever be a few idiots at any one time believing this nonsense.

___________________

[[ LINK REMOVED ]]




I don't know, I always thought the 9/11 people were whackos, but I have been doing a lot of digging of my own to educate myself about the world, and whats going on. I've been "turned on" if you will.

We all have plenty of clear cut reasons why we should be skeptical, and at least seek another answer. Most people are sheeple and have no idea what their importance on this planet is and just takes what is fed to them by the media and others in power, instead of taking the initiative to gain the knowledge themselves, and question everything.

The growing apathy, and ignorance of people around the world is terrible. I see it on the freeway in traffic everyday.

quote:

Originally posted by toolman667 [[ LINK REMOVED ]] I don't know, I always thought the 9/11 people were whackos, but I have been doing a lot of digging of my own to educate myself about the world, and whats going on. I've been "turned on" if you will. We all have plenty of clear cut reasons why we should be skeptical, and at least seek another answer. Most people are sheeple and have no idea what their importance on this planet is and just takes what is fed to them by the media and others in power, instead of taking the initiative to gain the knowledge themselves, and question everything. The growing apathy, and ignorance of people around the world is terrible. I see it on the freeway in traffic everyday.

some of what you say here is quite true. but there is a difference between being skeptical/searching for answers, and swallowing ridiculous, unsubstantiated notions that simply do not make ANY sense to the rational observer.

in terms of their methods for finding and arguing the "truth", they sit about the same place as creationists and holocaust deniers.

i dont understand why people can believe the most outlandish ideas without a shred of evidence. it boggles my mind.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN some of what you say here is quite true. but there is a difference between being skeptical/searching for answers, and swallowing ridiculous, unsubstantiated notions that simply do not make ANY sense to the rational observer.

Who is the rational observer? What about you? Can you think for yourself?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN in terms of their methods for finding and arguing the "truth", they sit about the same place as creationists and holocaust deniers.

Never said the holocaust never happened, in fact I see it happening again. The evidence is clear if you look for it, and history always repeats itself.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN i dont understand why people can believe the most outlandish ideas without a shred of evidence. it boggles my mind.

I dont understand why people can't speak about outlandish ideas with an open mind and use their eyes as evidence, and their critical thinking to have a polite and civil discussion or debate without others quick to pull the trigger on "conspiracy" or "crazy thoughts".

quote:

Originally posted by toolman667 Who is the rational observer? What about you? Can you think for yourself?

ANY rational observer. anyone capable of seeing through obvious bullshit.

quote:

Never said the holocaust never happened, in fact I see it happening again. The evidence is clear if you look for it, and history always repeats itself.

you dont understand. i am saying the 9/11 arguments use the same methods of inquiry as holocaust deniers and creationists.

quote:

I dont understand why people can't speak about outlandish ideas with an open mind and use their eyes as evidence, and their critical thinking to have a polite and civil discussion or debate without others quick to pull the trigger on "conspiracy" or "crazy thoughts".

because 9/11 conspiracy theories don't deserve a "polite and civil" discussion. that is reserved for ideas that make sense and have evidence. they ARE conspiracies. and they ARE crazy thoughts. its got nothing to do with having an "open mind", its about whether you are attracted to the fantastic or not.

ideas that are devoid of logic or evidence do not deserve the same respect as those that do. this is not an even playing field for all notions great and small. bring the evidence and bring the logic if you wish to pull the 9/11 troofer debacle above astrology and tarot readings.

coming up to 7 years later and the "movement" has produced NO evidence and still doesn't make ANY sense.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by toolman667 I dont understand why people can't speak about outlandish ideas with an open mind and use their eyes as evidence, and their critical thinking to have a polite and civil discussion or debate without others quick to pull the trigger on "conspiracy" or "crazy thoughts".

well first off it's offensive but thats irrelevant.

you said it yourself. it's outlandish.

after all the tests, and all of the scrutiny it remains "outlandish".

in order to trancend the "outlandish/civil discussion" divide it must pass the test of simple rationality. it doesn't. it was tried well before you and it fails miserably.

...so get used to being singled out for offensive and outlandish points-of-view until you can come up with another cohesive and rational explaination for what cullminated on that morning in September other than what's been widely accepted.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ANY rational observer. anyone capable of seeing through obvious bullshit.

I'd like to know what makes things so obvious to you, and then how you call yourself rational without trying to look at the other side without prejudice. You couldn't have listened to the material I presented to bring your opinions of it to this conversation.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you dont understand. i am saying the 9/11 arguments use the same methods of inquiry as holocaust deniers and creationists.

You don't understand. I am saying that you are quick to accept that those types of people are different from you. You've given into the separation, believing that because those groups of people think differently than you do on some things makes it all the more believable to you when someone says tells you that they use the same "methods" as those other groups. We are human beings. Creatures on a planet with no clue why as to why we are here, and some of us are in search of the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN because 9/11 conspiracy theories don't deserve a "polite and civil" discussion. that is reserved for ideas that make sense and have evidence. they ARE conspiracies. and they ARE crazy thoughts.

Yep, thats rational.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN its got nothing to do with having an "open mind", its about whether you are attracted to the fantastic or not.

This to me sounds like the idea of what open minded means... Without the "fantastic" to make intelligent ones think, the earth would be flat.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN ideas that are devoid of logic or evidence do not deserve the same respect as those that do. this is not an even playing field for all notions great and small. bring the evidence and bring the logic if you wish to pull the 9/11 troofer debacle above astrology and tarot readings. coming up to 7 years later and the "movement" has produced NO evidence and still doesn't make ANY sense.

So lets say for instance that there was a Murder. And we as people were trying to find the real killer. We find that a group of people could have POSSIBLY had something to do with, and therefore we called them suspect. Now say for sake of example, that this "group" released a 900 page book on how they didn't do it. So you are telling me we should read all 900 pages and believe every single page, when in logic, we've already proven a reason to disbelieve, and therefore discredit what said "suspect" has to say? I suppose this is the reason why OJ is free.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo well first off it's offensive but thats irrelevant.

This is not irrelevant... but I assume that you think building 7 is irrelevant too. Just because its offensive to think, means that it is hard to understand, hard to talk about, and hard to even imagine differently than what was "given" to us as information by the powers that be. That already turns off the idea of open, thought provoking discussion completely due to modern society's inherent apathy... all most people need is their tvs, their computers, their cars, their pools, their parties, and their income to keep paying off debt, and their worries all float away and their world gets smaller and smaller. Because of this, it becomes some wild "conspiracy theory", and no other person will talk about it because thats what crazys talk about.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo you said it yourself. it's outlandish.

So is religion, people talk about that all day long.

And the Earth would still be flat today if people kept perpetuating this type of "critical" thinking.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo after all the tests, and all of the scrutiny it remains "outlandish".

This sounds like the same garbage being shouted at impressionable minds during the salem witch trials.

Do you ever wonder about things like why do girls shave their legs, and why having a shaved cat is sexy? Do you ever wonder why you or where you started thinking those things, when the opposite was true for generations before us? Do you look and think about trends in media, in society, and the some of the ignorance of people these days, and the stupid stories we all read in the news? Do you ever look at history, or even different cultures today and wonder why they are running around in a jungle naked and "free" only having to do only what's needed to survive as a human, the creatures we are? Do you ever think of yourself as anything more than just that? Do you ever think about why we, or most people work 9-5, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year? Isnt it just enough to work until the job is done, till you've had enough to survive and provide support for next generations? Who is to set your pace in life? Do you ever wonder why? Do you ever observe your dog, and wonder what would happen to Spot if you stopped feeding him? Ever think about what it would be like to not make any money? Could you feed yourself? Do you know how to survive? Do you ever wonder why most believe that money is of actual value, rather than look at the value of their own self?

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo in order to trancend the "outlandish/civil discussion" divide it must pass the test of simple rationality. it doesn't. it was tried well before you and it fails miserably. ...so get used to being singled out for offensive and outlandish points-of-view until you can come up with another cohesive and rational explaination for what cullminated on that morning in September other than what's been widely accepted.

So the Gulf of Tonkin was believable at one time, the ideas behind the story were "rational", but then was later found to be questioned more and more, as more people "woke up" to the fact that it could be a farce. Now where are we? How is this "history repeating" so to speak any different?

Last edited by toolman667 on Jan-18-2008 at 16:23