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Originally posted by Q5echo the case is being made all around you...and the court thing is irrelevant. it was a metaphore in response to your metaphore.

The only things I hear are...
1. They are wackos.
2. They had a program but we don't know if they have one now.

I wasn't using court room as a metaphor. The UN and diplomacy basically operate according to the laws set out in their charters. You want to shoot now, ask questions later. I and the "looney left democrats" want to settle this issue by legal means! And in a courtroom, both sides are allowed to make their case.

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youre only alarmed b/c you obviously don't know about treaties and international law as well as Lebez. nothing more.

What? Is this a "how much do I know?" contest?

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teh Saudis don't want them. the Jordanians don't want them. the Egyptians don't want them. if you look a little closer, Sunni dominated ME countries would only want them if IRAN had them! so your logic again is myopic, shallow and wrong.

Guess why Iran wants them? Israel smart one. . .

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what does that have to do with Iranian nukes? best not answer that.

It's expected you hardline Republicans don't give a fuck about the suffering inside the failed occupied state of Palestine. Complete lack of any understanding of why Islamic militantcy is spreading.

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and youre not? see the key difference is Bush would like to avoid a WW3 situation as would most other sober thinkers and leaders including the EU and the Russians. you on the otherhand are more concerned with some sort of nuclear equality based on the here and now, ignoring everything that has ever been said or done in the past regarding nuclear weapons and ownership.

Wow. So now you say Iran is going to start World War III? DId you just make that up? I would rather Iran not have nuclear weapons, but guess what, Israel has them. Iran, as the arch-enemy of Israel must now have them. Look at the Iranian regional strategic position. Their enemy has nukes! It's will only lead to a domino effect in countries wanting nukes. You blame the wrong country.

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we're down to subjective interpretations now? you think i just make this shit up?

Internationally recognized state sponsors of terror? That is completely subjective. Guess what? Not every country recognizes Iran to be terrorist state.

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nope.

LOL @ answer...

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honestly, it doesn't matter what anyone expects. it's a matter of whether or not it's tolerable for a country like Iran to have nuclear strike capability.

Check this out. Israel having nukes gives Iran all the incentive it needs to want nukes of its own.

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the UN, IAEA, UK, France and Germany do.

That's fine. But they don't give a damn when the first nuclear power of the Middle East has an undeclared program of its own do they? THe Israeli nuclear program was in my opinion help by the West, which would explain the years ignoring of Israeli WMDs. Guess who else the West helped get WMDs? Saddam Hussein.

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it's unfair. thats your argument basically. ok. it's an adolecent child argument but ok.

Did you know Ad Hominems are invalid arguments? Mr. "Im so mature I beat you"

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whatever he said it was soundly rejected by the international community and condemned. doesn't matter though really. the State of Iran, not just the President, repeats the constant meme almost on a daily basis. with or without provocation. hardly conducive to a peaceful and well intentioned potential nuclear power. but keep appologizing for them i don't give a shit. youre wrong on so many levels it's not funny.

"Know your enemy." Sun Tzu

You don't know Iran. Did you forget about the US-backed puppet regime of the Shah? You think they are just going to forget about it? The US still has not apologized for the oppression of the Shah, fully supported by the US. And people like you give your country a blank check to commit atrocities and proliferate WMDs, but when it's Iran, you raise hell. Hypocrite. . .

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more subjective interpretation argument. great. why don't you just invoke the Nazi's while youre at it?

Why don't you stop making the subjective argument, "Anyone who believes this point of view is smart." It is biased, contrary to the point, and logical fallacy. I really could care less who you thought was smart.

Last edited by Krypton on Mar-04-2008 at 02:28

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Type of government doesn't have anything to do with it. All non-signatories are viewed the same - Pakistan, N. Korea, and India are not subject to the norms of the NPT either. Of course, the US is trying their darnedest to get N. Korea to sign, but the fact is, under international law, N. Korea cannot be compelled to unless they agree.

I would disagree because of the Democratic Peace Theory. Israel does not get the scrutiny N. Korea or Iran gets because they are a liberal democracy.

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Neither does the Hamas regime in Gaza.

Occupation is a bitch isn't it?

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Originally posted by Krypton I would disagree because of the Democratic Peace Theory. Israel does not get the scrutiny N. Korea or Iran gets because they are a liberal democracy. Occupation is a bitch isn't it?

Democratic Peace Theory is just a theory crafted out of forty years of hindsight, it certainly doesn't guide policy. And in any case, it's application is merely to explain why democracies don't fight other democracies, not to suggest that they shouldn't.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Democratic Peace Theory is just a theory crafted out of forty years of hindsight, it certainly doesn't guide policy. And in any case, it's application is merely to explain why democracies don't fight other democracies, not to suggest that they shouldn't.

The theory makes perfect sense in trying to explain why the NATO Alliance has completely ignored Israel WMD programs because Israel is a liberal democracy. The pro-Israel crowd in this thread have continually tried to justify why Israel is entitled to build up WMDs completely outside of any oversight or accountability simply because Israel can be "trusted". I believe that so-called trust by the pro-Israel people in this thread is because they identify with Israel as a western liberal democracy. Iran is some far off country waiting to be the next Hitler. Give me a break!

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Originally posted by Krypton The only things I hear are... 1. They are wackos...

2. They're getting the shit kicked out of them by the Neocon/Zionist war-machine United Nations.

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UN Security Council tightens Iran sanctions 4 Mar 2008, 0740 hrs IST,AFP UNITED NATIONS: The Security Council tightened UN sanctions on Iran on Monday for refusing to halt nuclear fuel work as six major powers offered to resume talks with the Islamic Republic to end the standoff. Fourteen of the council's 15 members voted in favor of Resolution 1803, sponsored by Britain, France and Germany, which slapped a third set of economic and trade sanctions on Iran in 15 months. Indonesia abstained during the vote which was presided over by Russia, the council chair for March. But Libya, South Africa and Vietnam, which joined Indonesia in expressing reservations about the need for fresh sanctions at a time when Iran is cooperating with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), voted in favor in the end. After the vote, the six powers trying to scale back Iran's nuclear ambitions issued a statement calling for new talks between EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana and Iran's nuclear negotiator. "We have asked Javier Solana to meet with Dr Saeed Jalili, Secretary of Iran's Supreme National Security Council," British ambassador John Sawers said on behalf of Britain, China, France, Germany, Russia and the United States. The six reconfirmed and pledged to expand a 2006 offer of economic and trade incentives to Iran in exchange for a freeze of its uranium enrichment activities which the West fears is aimed at developing nuclear weapons. US State Department spokesman Tom Casey said his government was "pleased to see the Security Council has recognized the continuing threat posed by Iran's nuclear program through this vote on additional sanctions." Speaking ahead of the vote, Iran's UN Ambassador Mohammad Khazaee blasted what he called an "unjust and irrational decision" which he said "undermines the integrity and credibility" of the council. >LINK<

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Originally posted by Q5echo 2. They're getting the shit kicked out of them by the Neocon/Zionist war-machine United Nations.

Great. Now where are the sanctions for Israel? It's a two-way street Q. You want to give preferential treatment to the dominant power in the Middle East.

And why are you so keen now to invoke the UN resolutions? Did you care for the UN when the USA decided to invade Iraq? Did the UN refusal to grant approval mean anything to you? Didn't think so. . .

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Originally posted by Krypton Great. Now where are the sanctions for Israel?

explain to me, in detail, why israel deserves sanctions (ignoring their crimes against humanity for a second).

i think you show a terribly naive understanding of global politics if you REALLY think it works the same way punishments between siblings might.

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Originally posted by Krypton It's a two-way street Q. You want to give preferential treatment to the dominant power in the Middle East.

so what? israel isnt a signatory to the NPT, nor is it an autocratic nightmare that executes homosexuals or forbids dissent. whats your point? ive tried to explain this to you before: the global political scene is not an egalitarian system.

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Originally posted by Jake Benson Neither does the Hamas regime in Gaza.

Can you prove that?

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Originally posted by Krypton The theory makes perfect sense in trying to explain why the NATO Alliance has completely ignored Israel WMD programs because Israel is a liberal democracy. The pro-Israel crowd in this thread have continually tried to justify why Israel is entitled to build up WMDs completely outside of any oversight or accountability simply because Israel can be "trusted". I believe that so-called trust by the pro-Israel people in this thread is because they identify with Israel as a western liberal democracy. Iran is some far off country waiting to be the next Hitler. Give me a break!

Wow, you've read a completely different version of Democratic Peace Theory than I've ever seen. Got a source?

And I don't think it's "pro-Israel" to simply point out that the "oversight" you are demanding doesn't legally apply.

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Originally posted by Krypton Great. Now where are the sanctions for Israel?

b/c they're not Iran and smart people are able to make clear and sober distinctions between Iran and everybody else.

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It's a two-way street Q.

it obviously isn't.

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You want to give preferential treatment to the dominant power in the Middle East.

if i can sleep better tonite than have to worry about Iran, then yes. that seems to be the prevailing sentiment anyways.

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And why are you so keen now to invoke the UN resolutions?

to show you there are infinitely more things going on here than you seem to be willing to accept.

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Did you care for the UN when the USA decided to invade Iraq?

i was very dissapointed.

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Did the UN refusal to grant approval mean anything to you?

yes. it was unfortunate, but i was a firm believer in action. still am.

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Didn't think so. . .

that would be cute if you were a 13 year old girl but c'mon dude, whats your point?

are you saying that the UN, now, has it all wrong. that they should bury themselves in a cloud of cognitive dissonance and willing suspension of disbelief such as what your doing here?

even if the UN did believe Israel's alleged nukes stockpile posed a threat to stability in the ME (they do think Israel is a threat b/c they hate Israel but not in a nuclear capacity. that should say something to you) legally they can't do anything because they're not subject to much in the way of statute.

Last edited by Q5echo on Mar-04-2008 at 04:38

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Originally posted by Q5echo are you saying that the UN, now, has it all wrong. that they should bury themselves in a cloud of cognitive dissonance and willing suspension of disbelief such as what your doing here?

Excuse me? You invoke the UN resolutions, but yet, that didn't mean shit when it came down to unilateral invasion of a sovereign country. No consistancy whatsoever.

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even if the UN did believe Israel's alleged nukes stockpile posed a threat to stability in the ME (they do think Israel is a threat b/c they hate Israel but not in a nuclear capacity. that should say something to you) legally they can't do anything because they're not subject to much in the way of statute.

Israel's nuclear stockpile is the catalyst for Iranian aspirations for their own nuclear arsenal, and possibly the domino effect after that. I could care less if Israel is not a signatory on any nuclear treaties. They don't deserve a free nuclear pass.

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i think you show a terribly naive understanding of global politics if you REALLY think it works the same way punishments between siblings might.

Then the Middle East sentiment that the UN and NATO unfairly blame them for the troubles going on in the region will remain.

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so what? israel isnt a signatory to the NPT, nor is it an autocratic nightmare that executes homosexuals or forbids dissent. whats your point? ive tried to explain this to you before: the global political scene is not an egalitarian system.

If I can somehow change international law to make all states equal under the law, then I'll do it, if I ever become that powerful. First thing I'de do is get rid of these sanctions. Because if anyone deserves sanctions, it's the USA and Israel, and any other occupiers of world.

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Wow, you've read a completely different version of Democratic Peace Theory than I've ever seen. Got a source? And I don't think it's "pro-Israel" to simply point out that the "oversight" you are demanding doesn't legally apply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace#_note-0

I am not saying it's the sole reason for such biased support. I am saying that the west identifies and relates to Israel on so many more levels than Iran because of the mutual cultural values held by Israel and the west. Many factors play a role, but I believe such a relation contributes to the wholesale support of Israel despite the illegal 40 year old Israeli occupation.

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Originally posted by Krypton Then the Middle East sentiment that the UN and NATO unfairly blame them for the troubles going on in the region will remain.

who cares? they can make their case to the UN, just like everyone else does.

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Originally posted by Krypton If I can somehow change international law to make all states equal under the law, then I'll do it, if I ever become that powerful.

right, so you'll repeal all existing treaties then?

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Originally posted by Krypton First thing I'de do is get rid of these sanctions. Because if anyone deserves sanctions, it's the USA and Israel, and any other occupiers of world.

right, so no sanctions to force countries to adhere to treaties they voluntarily signed. what would you use to enforce such treaties - bad language?

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