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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov What is your definition of a modern liberal democracy? Does it simply need to be a modern liberal democracy for white male land-owners? Because that's what the Founding Fathers set up. Don't take the political context out of their work - they may have been brilliant individuals, but they excluded certain populations from your modern liberal rights for a reason. The greatest fallacy in the American educational system is the imperviousness of the Founding Fathers, and their seemingly divine and infallible nature. Not only is it naive to talk about them as a singular entity, but it's also, quite frankly, idolization to hold them up as more than a collection of brilliant (but mortal) politicians. Should we not be holding the politicians in New Zealand, which was the first state to incorporate truly universal suffrage as "above mere politicians"?

I'm not denying any of that. But don't you think the principle of what was set up was revolutionary for its time, and unique in how long it has continuously existed, of course, always evolving. We have evolved from the status quo of the 1700's to today's status quo which has righted many of the wrongs of the past. I don't accept their achievement to be merely ordinary political bullshit...

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Originally posted by Krypton I'm not denying any of that. But don't you think the principle of what was set up was revolutionary for its time, and unique in how long it has continuously existed, of course, always evolving. We have evolved from the status quo of the 1700's to today's status quo which has righted many of the wrongs of the past. I don't accept their achievement to be merely ordinary political bullshit...

Well you have a disdain for politics that I obviously don't share.

I'm not going to argue that the creation of a federal republic wasn't challenging, or that it didn't require vast intelligent and a significant amount of foresight, or that it was old hat. But the Founders weren't entirely original either. For instance, the introduction to the Declaration of Independence was plagiarized.

I've recommended in the past that you look into the history of the Constitutional Convention - especially the debate that existed among the Founding Fathers over 1. whether a liberal republic was even the way to go, 2. rights and eligibility of citizenship, and 3. whether the Constitution was even created and adopted legally. You'll find a significant amount of dissent within the "Founding Fathers" on each of those points.

Furthermore, how does continuity have anything to do with the intelligence of the Founding Fathers? Because the United States is the largest and richest country in the Western hemisphere, we've managed to exist without any real external threats to our governance. That's great. And the evolution of the system owes very little to the Founding Fathers, wouldn't you agree? In fact, under the definition of a modern liberal democracy as a truly universal system, don't you think more credit goes to Lyndon B. Johnson than Thomas Jefferson, who wasn't even present at the Constitutional Convention? Hamilton wanted a king, and Jefferson was against checks and balances on the President. Can we really consider them as unitary with James Madison? Or Thomas Paine, the anarchist?

In sum, I think the debate the Founding Fathers had was important and highly enlightening as to the creation of the United States. That said, they are hardly beyond reproach or deified in my mind. They were mortal men who contributed what they could to the legacy of an infant state - not almighty creators whose unified will (however interpreted) is akin to the word of God.

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The American forefathers may not have been perfect, but they changed the world in many more ways that have yielded a lot greater fruits than 'pop culture'. America is not the only great country, but it is a great country that despite the now popular bandwagoning effect of hating America's influence and popular belief that America as a nation of selfish, spoiled, and morbidly obese people, is indisputably one of the most charitable nation compared to any other citizenry in the world--fact.

While I am not an American elitist by any means, I get sick of listening to everyone whine, and piss all over my country because of the mistakes and bad decisions of a top few. America is steered by imperfect people (despite the best efforts to make sure it is controlled by the people), who sometimes make poor decisions, e.g. indians, slavery, Vietnam, South America, Iraq, and you could make an infinite list of bad decisions I'm sure... I think that the effects, for better or for worse, need to be looked at in a view that would weigh the amount of change caused.

The American revolution may not have been revolutionary in a sense that the idea of a colony freeing itself was novel and radical at the time... but rather in the amount of change it cause in the world around. I think the effect that, that had on the world has forever changed it. I would like to think for the better. There is no way to quantify the good vs. the bad for a country and then come to a consensus and then label it.

And as for the founding fathers, WHO DOESN'T have their own agendas, biases, etc... it all boils down to likes vs. dislikes which we can't hold against anyone. Criticizing a politician for being opinionated doesn't make sense. Of course they have opinions, that is why you elect the one which opinions, ideals, and beliefs that you agree will be in the best interest of the nation.

The founding fathers of the USA, were good men. History may glorify them, or be one sided, but the fact remains that what has resulted from their efforts has changed the world in a way that I would hope has made it a better place for people to pursue happiness. Many other countries have done the same, and I think it is also a very honorable effort.

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Originally posted by naeblis The American forefathers may not have been perfect, but they changed the world in many more ways that have yielded a lot greater fruits than 'pop culture'. America is not the only great country, but it is a great country that despite the now popular bandwagoning effect of hating America's influence and popular belief that America as a nation of selfish, spoiled, and morbidly obese people, is indisputably one of the most charitable nation compared to any other citizenry in the world--fact.

Right..

i hate patriots.

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Originally posted by nchs09 Right..

according to the charities aid foundation (UK)
http://www.cafonline.org/

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Originally posted by naeblis The American revolution may not have been revolutionary in a sense that the idea of a colony freeing itself was novel and radical at the time... but rather in the amount of change it cause in the world around. I think the effect that, that had on the world has forever changed it. I would like to think for the better. There is no way to quantify the good vs. the bad for a country and then come to a consensus and then label it.

I would argue that the French Revolution had a considerably larger effect on the world than anything that happened in the US.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I would argue that the French Revolution had a considerably larger effect on the world than anything that happened in the US.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that I guess, my point being that it had a 'great' effect, not the 'greatest'.

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Originally posted by naeblis I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that I guess, my point being that it had a 'great' effect, not the 'greatest'.

Fair enough. I don't think pkc would argue against that either - the original post stems from a frustration with individuals that cite the "intentions" of the Founding Fathers as impervious to criticism. There is no denying that many of the actions and writings of the men alive at that time were influential later on - but to think that they were uniform in intention or perfect in nature is a flawed point of view. pkc just has a wonderful way of expressing that frustration.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov pkc just has a wonderful way of expressing that frustration.

which is why i wrote this in the COR and not the PDD

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Get back in your hole and take your meds already!