The figure I'm looking at is the one that "Jerz" quotes from the article, unionized big-3 workers earn about $10/hour more than non-unionized workers in Honda/Toyota factories. (not the $22/hour difference "XanaX" points to). Now of course if you stretch that out into gross annual figures and multiply it by every worker you can get big numbers. Super.

But bring it back to the individual level, remember that the big-3 have been operating for decades longer than the Honda/Toyota factories, and you quickly see that the $10/hour more per hour average is a product of a more experienced/aged workforce, and that in time the same figures will apply to the foreign factories as well.

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think stasis | latest mix

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis The figure I'm looking at is the one that "Jerz" quotes from the article, unionized big-3 workers earn about $10/hour more than non-unionized workers in Honda/Toyota factories. (not the $22/hour difference "XanaX" points to). Now of course if you stretch that out into gross annual figures and multiply it by every worker you can get big numbers. Super. But bring it back to the individual level, remember that the big-3 have been operating for decades longer than the Honda/Toyota factories, and you quickly see that the $10/hour more per hour average is a product of a more experienced/aged workforce, and that in time the same figures will apply to the foreign factories as well.

the $10 an hour more is a product of union coersion. It doesn't take much to mastering the craft of pushing buttons, lightly guiding a machine into place to do the actual work, placing component parts in the correct place for a machine to fabricate, and taking 2 hour lunch breaks. I think the $40+ an hour figure for foreign owned operations is still too high. I think those workers indirectly benefit from the union contracts of the UAW workers.

Calling most of these workers 'skilled' labor (as the UAW and many article like to do) is generous. I'm sure some have genuine skills, e.g., welders, machine technicians, and electronics technicians, but that doesn't describe many of the workers who press buttons and inspect finished parts.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss GM and Toyota sold roughly the same number of vehicles over the last year, but Toyota turned a $1.7 billion profit while GM lost around $9 billion. That doesn't happen by accident. Until these automakers and their unions resolve the structural problems that creates this kind of unprofitability, they are a terrible credit risk and a lousy investment... and neither management nor labor shows much willingness to change for the taxpayer subsidies they now demand. What fags.

It's not wages, it's legacy costs. The problem is that people are dying early enough. The actuaries that designed the pensions didn't plan for people to live 25-40 years after retirement.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
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Originally posted by gehzumteufel You failed at trying to debunk the wage mystery. Why? The NYT article clearly states that the current cost to Ford for wages is averaging $22/hr per employee higher than the Japanese makes. That is HUGE. When you have a work force of 100,000, that is 2.2 million per hour worked each day that they are paying higher than the Japanese. Go and run along now.

I realize that this is the COR, but read the fucking articles posted by people prior to you

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis Whoa, what's with all the anti-union nonsense? Anyone who thinks autoworkers in the big 3 are overpaid compared to their non-unionized counterparts in Honda/Toyota/Nissan factories is just ill-informed: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/b...onhardt.html?em

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse how much money do the Big 3 spend on healthcare compared to foreign car makers building cars within the US in non-union shops? So much of the cost of a GM car is health plan. I agree that it used to be necessary and in most cases, auto and heavy industry was the trend-setter for better employee rights all over the spectrum of the workforce. Now, I think it has bred a lazy attitude of entitlement.

Awfully striking statement coming from someone from countries with a universal health care system.

If Obama puts in better health care as promised, the costs to corporations will make the Big 3 more viable than some of the transplants at current levels.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

Last edited by Groundhog Boy on Dec-13-2008 at 04:33

C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

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Kinetic Energy aka Gay Robot

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis The figure I'm looking at is the one that "Jerz" quotes from the article, unionized big-3 workers earn about $10/hour more than non-unionized workers in Honda/Toyota factories. (not the $22/hour difference "XanaX" points to). Now of course if you stretch that out into gross annual figures and multiply it by every worker you can get big numbers. Super. But bring it back to the individual level, remember that the big-3 have been operating for decades longer than the Honda/Toyota factories, and you quickly see that the $10/hour more per hour average is a product of a more experienced/aged workforce, and that in time the same figures will apply to the foreign factories as well.

the $10 figure isn't accounting for the increaded legacy costs that the big 3 have because of the fat pensions and above industry average benefits the workers have thanks to the UAW. Show me some data that indicates that the big 3's workforce is more experienced/aged than that of the japanese companies operating here in the US. If you bothered to look at the graph on the link you posted you would have noticed that there is very little difference between the non-UAW and the UAW workers when it comes to actual salary. The difference is in cost of benefits and legacy costs, that is where the $22 an hour comes from, thanks to the UAW. No matter what the actual wage is, the big 3 have labor costs that are $22 an hour more than the foreign manufacturers operating in the US have and that is a handicap that they will not be able to overcome.

quote:

Originally posted by XaNaX the $10 figure isn't accounting for the increaded legacy costs that the big 3 have because of the fat pensions and above industry average benefits the workers have thanks to the UAW. Show me some data that indicates that the big 3's workforce is more experienced/aged than that of the japanese companies operating here in the US. If you bothered to look at the graph on the link you posted you would have noticed that there is very little difference between the non-UAW and the UAW workers when it comes to actual salary. The difference is in cost of benefits and legacy costs, that is where the $22 an hour comes from, thanks to the UAW. No matter what the actual wage is, the big 3 have labor costs that are $22 an hour more than the foreign manufacturers operating in the US have and that is a handicap that they will not be able to overcome.

This was the point of my comment before. When pensions/retirement benefits were guaranteed to your grandparents, they were expected to be dead by now. The fact that medicine has advanced faster than the statistical models adjusted for screwed the unionized companies.

BTW, during the UAW's president's press conference on CNBC this morning, he pointed out that in 2007, Toyota was bragging about paying more then the Big 3 in salaries.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

quote:

Originally posted by Stasis the $10/hour more per hour average is a product of a more experienced/aged workforce

lol that's fucking ridiculous!!! so in time, the plant worker might make partner!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy BTW, during the UAW's president's press conference on CNBC this morning, he pointed out that in 2007, Toyota was bragging about paying more then the Big 3 in salaries.

someone should have pointed out to that idiot that the reason Toyota could actually afford to pay a higher wage than the big 3 is they are paying $13 an hour per worker less in legacy costs. And then remind him that the difference in legacy costs is directly the fault of his organization

quote:

Originally posted by XaNaX someone should have pointed out to that idiot that the reason Toyota could actually afford to pay a higher wage than the big 3 is they are paying $13 an hour per worker less in legacy costs. And then remind him that the difference in legacy costs is directly the fault of his organization

Yeah, god forbid people retire

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul