Hah! And they say other countries (Russia) put on a disproportionate show of force. Yeah right. Hypocrisy at its best. I dont see NATO/UN/EU blocking Israel or calling for emergency sessions to deal with the "threat".

Its just some stupid Arabs, eh? Who cares, lets just bomb the fuck out of those people, piss Palestinians off even more, continue the blockade, and the only group actually trying to stop the madness is the Arab countries???

Looking at the bigger picture - obviously peace is not on the agenda of either groups. Hamas is quietly lanching their Gassam rockets (retards), and Israel just launch an all-out ass whippin' (morons). But the bigger idiot is Israel - but its obvious their leadership is doing this because the elections are about a month away. Go figure.

Dont get me wrong, Hamas is insane too, I never supported them - but look at the comparison here - its pretty dam obvious who's the bigger lunatic. One Isaeli died and they decided to do this? Oh wait ... kinda remembered the Lebanon war from a year ago when Israel broke every international law in the books. Killed over 500 innocent civilians, destroyed infrastructure, and best of all - still lost the war. Where were the international outcry and condemnations, embargos and other fines issued against Israel? Israel is literally ALLOWED to use as much force as it wants, when it wants to it, to do whatever it desires. And it knows there's noone to stop it.

Its pathetic.

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quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Hypocrisy at its best. One Isaeli died and they decided to do this? Its pathetic.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Ignorance at it's best.

Correct, the university is closely associated with Hamas hence it makes for a target.
Anyplace of command or communications is being taken out in Gaza.
The tunnels are where Hamas smuggles weapons from. Israel is finally taking out the tunnels around the Philadelphia corridor over there. This is long overdue.

W Ashley when has Israel acted in Libya? And when you talk about Israel and Iraq are you referring to Israel taking out Iraq's nuclear site back in 1981?
And are you forgetting the other Arab Israeli wars, such as those in 1948, 1956, and 1973? Why did you only bring up the one from 1967? Why didnt you bring up the fact that it was a six day war in which tiny Israel not only defeated its large neighbors, but also captured East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the Golan Heights.
Why didnt you bring up the fact that Syria only had control of the Golan Heights for 20 years while Israel's been controlling it for 40 years now?
And why would Israeli planes target Tel Aviv and Jerusalem? Gaza isn't a part of Israel, and it's at war with Israel. The rules of engagement are totally different in this type of situation.
Hamas itself today fired a rocket into the Israeli city of Ashqelon which ended killing an Arab, and injuring about 16 other Arabs.
In the past year Hamas has killed dozens if not hundreds of Gazans who are associated with the Fatah movement. That's why some Arab leaders havent been up in arms b/c Hamas is responsible for the killing of not only Israeli civilians and soldiers, but also responsible for the deaths of many many Palestinians.

Your knowledge of the situation is extremely limited.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi In 2011 news, the first nuclear bomb was used since world war 2 on gaza strip after Hamas fired 300 Roman candles, damaging about 5 square meters of agricultural land. but hey, proportionism is not relevant, so life is a bitch.

i think you guys are too hung up over the whole number of people killed. That number is not relevant for proportionality. When Hamas fires a rocket into israel and kills someone, the chances of the rocket killing a soldier are almost non-existent. when israel attacks targets in gaza the chances of killing a militant are highly likely. What does it matter if israel kills 300 militants in response to the death of 1 israeli civilian? It would be entirely appropriate for israel to eliminate every person who threatens its citizens. As a result, the death of 300 palestinians on its face means nothing. If israel kills 300 militants in response to the death of one israeli civilian that is entirely proportional. Once the civilian death toll starts increasing that when proportionality becomes an issue.

Q is absolutely correct that among soldiers proportionality is irrelevant. The nature of war is to kill soldiers on the other side. If armies were restricted by rules that permitted only the killing of as many soldiers on the other side as were killed on their side, there would be a clear disadvantage to the non-aggressor side.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer The kids that lose their parents in these attacks will grow and would want take revennge at some point.Isreal is just fuckin itself in the ass by this.

i guess that's a good reason to kill the children as well.

Last edited by jerZ07002 on Dec-29-2008 at 16:03

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 i think you guys are too hung up over the whole number of people killed. That number is not relevant for proportionality. When Hamas fires a rocket into israel and kills someone, the chances of the rocket killing a soldier are almost non-existent. when israel attacks targets in gaza the chances of killing a militant are highly likely. What does it matter if israel kills 300 militants in response to the death of 1 israeli civilian? It would be entirely appropriate for israel to eliminate every person who threatens its citizens. As a result, the death of 300 palestinians on its face means nothing. If israel kills 300 militants in response to the death of one israeli civilian that is entirely proportional. Once the civilian death toll starts increasing that when proportionality becomes an issue. Q is absolutely correct that among soldiers proportionality is irrelevant. The nature of war is to kill soldiers on the other side. If armies were restricted by rules that permitted only the killing of as many soldiers on the other side as were killed on their side, there would be a clear disadvantage to the non-aggressor side.

actually, firing a rocket and hitting someone and kiling a "soldier" is much higher than you think, factoring the mandatory service and all the Israelis that are one the reserve, or with the Hamas ideology-"those who are destined to serve"--no, i dont support this mentality

If Hamas had the F16s and Israel had Katyushas, Israel would be firing randomly out of desperation as well

i dont agree with extreme Islamists like Hamas, but if some of you were to know the enemy, as in know extreme islamists personally, you'll realize the repurcussions of behaviour like this. this hatred will continue for generations. Noam chomsky stated that people that are forced to witness such atrocities will by nature resort to acts of terrorism, because they have lost the value of their life, and nothing can compare to the euphoria that the "aterlife" promises

This shit is very ironic for a state that was helped founded by terrorism(successful terrorism-where they won and were integrated into the IDF)

Now Im looking to see how the International community chooses to deal with this. Egypt is key, a wrong response could push Mubarak's regime to closer its end, bringing on the Salfists. thats when hell breaks lose and nukes may be used.

the proportionality is irrelevant arguement is opening the door for biological chemical and nuclear warfare, with a complete disregard for collateral damage.

Israel isn't targeting the people who are launching the rockets into Israel. They're targeting policemen and the infrastructure. Most of these people have nothing to do with the leadership or those who launch the rockets. Some of these policemen got their jobs because work is hard to come by in Gaza (especially due to the blockade), and they took up a risk of getting killed not only by Palestinians but even more by Israel - and in Gaza, good jobs are hard to come by. Yes, some - if not many - policemen are diehard Hamas supporters and have warped beliefs, and they support Hamas line since many of those people have been indoctrinated, brainwashed studies at the bombed-out university, but I dont see how Hamas is going to just give up the rocket attacks forever.

All I see is Hamas actually winning this war. Why? One - because they see that Israel considers their rockets a serious threat, and two - Israel showed to the world yet again its agressor face. Yes, its obvious Hamas was stockpiling and improving their rockets during the months of ceasefire, and they wanted Israel to show the blunt force. Three - Hamas will be even more popular again. Yes, Israel can invade (again) and depose Hamas, suffer casualties and spend millions, but Palestinians are not dumb barbarians. They see Israel for its actions.

You think an average Palestinian understands why his house, workplace, friends get blown to smithereens? They see Israel for its true face, how Israel has turned Gaza into an extremely poor area, stateless, cut off from the world. How has blockade weakened Hamas in Gaza? Israel's policy is idiotic, and it only encouraged illegal activities and weapons smuggling because Palestinians arent gonna sit and allow Israel to continue humiliating them. Just think about it.

What has Israel achieved - almost nothing - all these years since the intifada begans after the lull of the 1990s. Israel's cause and support has really taken a hit, in my opinion. They dont know how to deal with Palestinians, and quite frankly - there are quite a number of Israelis who dont want to have peace with Palestinians. So go figure.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

simply put; You lob rockets into Israel, and then whine and complain and gnash teeth when they kick your asses.



oh but I forgot, that is not in the grand scheme of KILL ALL THE JEWS/DEATH TO ISRAEL and PS. DEATH TO AMERICA mentality that Hamas and those sympathizers on this board have.





Both sides are at fault.

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX simply put; You lob rockets into Israel, and then whine and complain and gnash teeth when they kick your asses. oh but I forgot, that is not in the grand scheme of KILL ALL THE JEWS/DEATH TO ISRAEL and PS. DEATH TO AMERICA mentality that Hamas and those sympathizers on this board have. Both sides are at fault.

I have yet to see someone on this discussion with a Kill all Jews/Israel mentality. care to provide some examples of this mate?

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi actually, firing a rocket and hitting someone and kiling a "soldier" is much higher than you think, factoring the mandatory service and all the Israelis that are one the reserve, or with the Hamas ideology-"those who are destined to serve"--no, i dont support this mentality If Hamas had the F16s and Israel had Katyushas, Israel would be firing randomly out of desperation as well i dont agree with extreme Islamists like Hamas, but if some of you were to know the enemy, as in know extreme islamists personally, you'll realize the repurcussions of behaviour like this. this hatred will continue for generations. Noam chomsky stated that people that are forced to witness such atrocities will by nature resort to acts of terrorism, because they have lost the value of their life, and nothing can compare to the euphoria that the "aterlife" promises This shit is very ironic for a state that was helped founded by terrorism(successful terrorism-where they won and were integrated into the IDF) Now Im looking to see how the International community chooses to deal with this. Egypt is key, a wrong response could push Mubarak's regime to closer its end, bringing on the Salfists. thats when hell breaks lose and nukes may be used. the proportionality is irrelevant arguement is opening the door for biological chemical and nuclear warfare, with a complete disregard for collateral damage.

you missed the point. i wasn't commenting on the effects of any of this. both sides are wrong in my mind, however, a blanket statement that israel has acted out of proportion is wrong if you don't consider who was killed by both sides.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Damerchi I have yet to see someone on this discussion with a Kill all Jews/Israel mentality. care to provide some examples of this mate?

its not what is said but implied.

the years lurking and years I have been a member of this board has given me all the examples I need.

Before expressing optimism about what might be, let's look at what is. As the New York Times rightly suggests this weekend, the Hamas party platform, articulated in the 1988 Hamas Charter, provides a useful prism to understand the mentality of Hamas (a.k.a. The Islamic Resistance Movement). Just read the Hamas Charter and it will leave you utterly depressed about the prospects for Middle East peace.

quote:

Here are some of the lowpoints: * Hamas is an arm of the Muslim Brotherhood (Art. 2); * Hamas' goal is Jihad and the death of Jews (Art. 7); * Jihad is the path of Hamas, and death for Allah its most sublime belief (Art. 8); * The land of Palestine is an Islamic inheritance (Art. 11); * All Muslims are duty-bound to commit Jihad against Israel (Art. 12); * Peace is not an option (Art. 13); * Muslims everywhere are duty-bound to liberate Palestine (Art. 14); * Muslims must study the enemy, looking for weak spots (Art. 16); * Western culture is a Zionist plot to distance women from Islam (Art. 17) * Women must train their children to become Jihad fighters (Art. 18); * Enemies rule the world through intermediaries such as the United Nations (Art. 22); * The PLO is too secular (Art. 27); * All Arab states must support Jihad (Art. 28); * All Muslim leaders must support Jihad (Art. 30); * Hamas cares about human rights and religious toleration, provided all other religions live in the shadow of Islam (Art. 31); * Peace accords are treacherous schemes of Zionists (Art. 32); * Jihad will not end until liberation is complete (Art. 33); and * Palestine is the navel of the earth and Jihad is our answer to the Christian Crusades (Art. 34).

At least in my view if one supports Hamas in any way shape or form, ie; on this board, one accepts Hamas' platform

That is why I have always denounced Israel and Hamas in this cluster fuck... both of them are at fault and both share the blame,

but some on this board may support Hamas just cause its the "in thing" to do....

my opinion among 1000000s in this world that we all have to live in