it is pretty easy to judge another state's policy, especially if it's one that believes in an alternate form of government...

i think the whole 'indoctrinated' argument is completely bankrupt since we're all indoctrinated in some way... they grew up being told what to think? how are we any different? just because we got told to be free?
fuck, capitalism is even worse because it's so hypocritical: Force people to be free, suprised orwell didn't have that as one of the slogans in 1984...

as far as people thinking they're happy but you claiming they're not, that's just the most ludicrously arrogant thing that an imperialist can say.

and censored information: how do we get information? goes thru channels, and is controlled by business.
just because we get different information doesn't necessarily mean we're on some enlightened end of the information highway...

oh you might think you're happy with your spiritual existence, at one with the earth, but let me show you our soulless, money and power-based economy... you'll never look back..

now, obviously you boys aren't saying that, but the truth is that it's how it works out.. just because somebody has a different life to you doesn't mean you're better, and DOES mean that you have no right to intervene!

when it comes to international relations i think the best perspective comes from asking yourself "who the fuck am i??"

unless you ARE one of the people you're judging then you should probably back away.

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz As Astroboy pointed out, you can't compare India and China. You're comparing apples and oranges. China is to its people, what religious zealot parents are to their children. They have little hope of breaking the cycle because all they ever know is taught to them by their parents and anything that rivals that dominance is quickly stamped out by the parents. You can draw parallels to the Chinese people and their government there. They aren't ever given the option of choosing. In fact, most probably don't even know that they have a choice!

you can't compare india and china, but you're comparing china to your own personal opinons about rights and government.

also, if people aren't able to manage their own governments how the hell did we become democratic??
1: these things don't happen overnight and 2: they ALWAYS fuck up if forced. 3: they always fuck up even WORSE when forced by external pressures.

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quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN fuck people. and fuck you too boris.

what did i do now? you son of a whore

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII it is pretty easy to judge another state's policy, especially if it's one that believes in an alternate form of government... i think the whole 'indoctrinated' argument is completely bankrupt since we're all indoctrinated in some way... they grew up being told what to think? how are we any different? just because we got told to be free?

I've lived under both systems.. believe me there is a fucking world of difference. Yes we're all indoctrinated in some way but that is a different animal altogether to Soviet style indoctrination

quote:

fuck, capitalism is even worse because it's so hypocritical: Force people to be free, suprised orwell didn't have that as one of the slogans in 1984...

I would say it reflects the nature of humanity. We are all condemned to choose... even in a dictatorship.

quote:

as far as people thinking they're happy but you claiming they're not, that's just the most ludicrously arrogant thing that an imperialist can say. [quote]and censored information: how do we get information? goes thru channels, and is controlled by business. just because we get different information doesn't necessarily mean we're on some enlightened end of the information highway...

Not different.. diverse. Find me a satyrical show like the chaser anywhere on Russian TV. In fact find me any take on the government on any TV channel that is anything but glowing.

North Korean people, to take an extreme example, have a choice of watching "what the dear leader did today" "an opera based on the life of the dear leader" "a play based on the life of the dear leader" "what the dear leader plans to do tomorrow" "how the dear leader has created the greatest nation on earth" "how the US sends tributes to the dear leader" etc.. Those people believe they're happy because they have nothing to compare to... they are told their state is the greatest even as they starve to death. If they were free to see and watch what they wanted, leave the country for holidays etc and still chose the dear leader, more power to them. But their choice is hindered by their lack of knowledge.

quote:

now, obviously you boys aren't saying that, but the truth is that it's how it works out.. just because somebody has a different life to you doesn't mean you're better, and DOES mean that you have no right to intervene!

I'm not better.. I wouldn;t suggest that I am better than someone. But I'm better OFF than I was living there, and I'm sure people like Solzhenytsin, Dostoevsky or any number of dissidents that continued to live there despite the regime would agree with me.

In terms of intervention I think it's only warranted when things I am extremely uncomfortable with occur.. women being stoned, people being tortured etc.. I won't pretend I have access to some repository of universal human rights, in fact I'll admit it is imperialistic.. but I don't really give a shit.. hey at least I'm not giving you a song and dance about universal morals.

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quote:

Originally posted by boris_the_bear what did i do now? you son of a whore

Pk doesn't like you cuz u are the enemy in his favorite FPS..

Last edited by Capitalizt on Nov-17-2009 at 15:05

What happened to the good old days when this thread was about remote controls up the ass?

quote:

Originally posted by astroboy 1: I've lived under both systems.. believe me there is a fucking world of difference. Yes we're all indoctrinated in some way but that is a different animal altogether to Soviet style indoctrination 2: I would say it reflects the nature of humanity. We are all condemned to choose... even in a dictatorship. 3: Not different.. diverse. Find me a satyrical show like the chaser anywhere on Russian TV. In fact find me any take on the government on any TV channel that is anything but glowing. North Korean people, to take an extreme example, have a choice of watching "what the dear leader did today" "an opera based on the life of the dear leader" "a play based on the life of the dear leader" "what the dear leader plans to do tomorrow" "how the dear leader has created the greatest nation on earth" "how the US sends tributes to the dear leader" etc.. 4: Those people believe they're happy because they have nothing to compare to... they are told their state is the greatest even as they starve to death. If they were free to see and watch what they wanted, leave the country for holidays etc and still chose the dear leader, more power to them. But their choice is hindered by their lack of knowledge. 5: I'm not better.. I wouldn;t suggest that I am better than someone. But I'm better OFF than I was living there, and I'm sure people like Solzhenytsin, Dostoevsky or any number of dissidents that continued to live there despite the regime would agree with me. In terms of intervention I think it's only warranted when things I am extremely uncomfortable with occur.. women being stoned, people being tortured etc.. I won't pretend I have access to some repository of universal human rights, in fact I'll admit it is imperialistic.. but I don't really give a shit.. hey at least I'm not giving you a song and dance about universal morals.

1: fair enough, i havn't lived under soviet rule, so i really can't say subjectively how it is: i've studied it a fair bit and have talked to a fair few people who were a part of it however. One of my friends, for example, is polish: her parents wanted to go back to communism because at least in those days everybody was poor

2: we are indeed condemned to choose: that's why i believe it's their perogative to manage their own government... not sure how this was meant to be in opposition to what i said, or maybe it wasn't...? by forcing somebody to be free i was talking about democratic expansionist policy.. trying to make everybody democratic, even if they don't want to. one of those hilarious ironies i think

3: not sure about the tv stuff: i would say that the chasers was cancelled because it was 'too controvercial' despite 'free speech' rights, and the amount of censorship that goes on in the US and here is completely ridiculous, but of course it's really beside the point...
i guess i'm saying, again, that it's relative: we're not some libertarian nation without an oppressive state... if anything it's worse because many people believe we are...

4: define happiness. seriously. there is no way you can define happiness in any other way than by opinion. there is absolutely no way you can claim happiness is objective. what's the difference why a person is happy if they are happy? is there a scale of happiness that can be used to measure them against us? of course not...

5: i think you and i pretty much agree, but the thing is that intervention: even judging the conditions of another state, or the mental state of another person is completely arrogant... it is based on your own sense of self-importance... i think that basically people can take care of themselves and it flies in the face of history and respect to deny that. just cause we have more money and a completely absurd military budget in the west doesn't mean we know any better than any other state.
just because we have different history doesn't mean we've 'progressed' more than anyone else. what it does mean that the human precedent exists and can be achieved by other people if and when they choose.

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You can't honestly tell me that because we're foreigners, we have no right to comment and prevent human injustice in other nations? They may have their own ways and beliefs but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

You may have grown up in your cosy little western democracy but I suggest you go live in some other countries to get a different perspective on how good we have it here and stamp that naivety out of your head.

You're basically saying that because we don't understand the Chinese/Russian way of life, we can't effectively comment on it. What to us seems like human injustice is in reality unicorn, rainbows and kisses in a wonderful utopia to the people that actually live there. I didn't think anyone could be that naive.

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quote:

Originally posted by Fledz You can't honestly tell me that because we're foreigners, we have no right to comment and prevent human injustice in other nations? They may have their own ways and beliefs but the line has to be drawn somewhere. You may have grown up in your cosy little western democracy but I suggest you go live in some other countries to get a different perspective on how good we have it here and stamp that naivety out of your head. You're basically saying that because we don't understand the Chinese/Russian way of life, we can't effectively comment on it. What to us seems like human injustice is in reality unicorn, rainbows and kisses in a wonderful utopia to the people that actually live there. I didn't think anyone could be that naive.

exactly. moral relativism is for mugs.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Or you could be a modern American NeoCon and actually enjoy being told how to act and think by radio and TV personalities.

This. It's amazing how sheep-like the majority of the population are.

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quote:

Originally posted by david.michael What happened to the good old days when this thread was about remote controls up the ass?

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