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Originally posted by nefardec It's ok, there are others like you!

Didn't we already agree that personal attacks are pointless?

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Originally posted by woscar What I get from all that is that you do not think there is anything that is detrimental to humanity as a whole and that all aspects of human culture, diversity, religion, morals, etc should be protected.

No.

I'm just saying, that there is no AUTHORITY to control these things.

In my view there is one goal, and that is ... universal love. What else really matters in life? Eg - Who cares if you live to be 500 if you have no one to spend it with?

Subjecting the whole world to some distant authority that they have to believe in because they lack the scientific training to comprehend it is not moving towards a goal of universal love, but rather one of universal fear.

You can't make people love you even if you think you flawless logic. Relationships 101.

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Originally posted by woscar Didn't we already agree that personal attacks are pointless?

sorry, that was meant as a bit of humor - did not mean to offend you.

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Originally posted by nefardec sorry, that was meant as a bit of humor - did not mean to offend you.

No worries mate, I can also see the humor, not offended by it at all. Just don't want to see the interesting (at least to me) discussion we are having go down shit's creek.

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Originally posted by nefardec No. I'm just saying, that there is no AUTHORITY to control these things.

I think this is the point were you and I divert. I'm not saying (and neither did Sam Harris, for that matter) that there should be a Universal Moral Police to enforce these beliefs. Rather than an open discussion on what the moral and cultural relativism we are currently practicing is leading/will lead. Also, that reaching moral objectivity is a desirable thing to accomplish in the context of human flourishing. If you stop to think about it, the fact that different people have different ideas of what his own flourishing is, is not an impediment for moral objectivity.

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Originally posted by nefardec In my view there is one goal, and that is ... universal love. What else really matters in life? Eg - Who cares if you live to be 500 if you have no one to spend it with?

*cough* hopeless romantic *cough*

I agree with you here (on universal love being a fantastic thing), but I don't see it as a goal but rather as one of the means to happiness. You can have all the love in the world and still be miserable. Also, that analogy he used of the 200 year old man was merely illustrative.

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Originally posted by nefardec Subjecting the whole world to some distant authority that they have to believe in because they lack the scientific training to comprehend it is not moving towards a goal of universal love, but rather one of universal fear.

I think that it was the word "science" in Harris' lecture that set off alarms for you. Like I have said many times in this thread, what is meant by science in here is not science itself but its methods of observation and learning and therefore aim to reach objectivity instead of having values surrounded by subjectivity forever.

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Originally posted by nefardec You can't make people love you even if you think you flawless logic. Relationships 101.

Don't know where this is coming from but I will say that I agree.

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Last edited by woscar on Mar-24-2010 at 18:37

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Originally posted by nefardec Subjecting the whole world to some distant authority that they have to believe in because they lack the scientific training to comprehend it is not moving towards a goal of universal love, but rather one of universal fear.

"Subjecting the world to some distant authority that they have to believe in". That sounds an awful lot like religion to me, not science. Ins't God a "distant authority"? Science asks us only to question the nature of things, which leads me to my next point:

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Originally posted by woscar I think that it was the word "science" in Harris' lecture that set off alarms for you. Like I have said many times in this thread, what is meant by science in here is not science itself but its methods of observation and learning and therefore aim to reach objectivity instead of having values surrounded by subjectivity forever.

What exactly is science? Whereas religion can easily be classified as a group of related beliefs, practices, rituals etc, the only defining characteristic of science is that of asking questions. There's really no other way to codify it. Whereas religion asks many things of followers, science asks people only to think critically and observe. In essence, it's asking people to examine the evidence and make up their own minds, which is surely the best path of action.

However, science cops criticism because people begin to follow scientific views without understanding them, in effect making their beliefs as flimsy as religious ones. Incorrect:

1. At least the findings or beliefs of science can be questioned, unlike 'faith' which is sacrosanct.

2. Even blindly following the word of someone like Richard Dawkins without ever having heard him speak or reading a single word of his would be better than following the church. Any given clergyman is likely to believe in something which he has no evidence for. Even the most idiot scientist, who makes false assertions, at least bases their assertions on experience and solid fact.

Plus, I think a scientist has less reason to lie. A clergyman is trying to enforce morals, whereas a scientist is only trying to enforce truth. A scientist would never tell you that hell exists so you'll stop shoplifting.

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The funny thing about Sam Harris's distorted perceptions and beliefs is that his whole philosophy is based on lies and stories told through a box that generated enormous revenue for a small group of people (and im not talking about the media or cable company.) Primarily because radicalism and fundamentalism, Al Qaeda, Taliban etc...are fully controlled by NON Muslim funded organizations and corporations that profit off of extremism, the charades of "fundamentalists". Fundamentalism (the thing that has helped sell these multi trillion dollar wars) was created in a boardroom...on perhaps a sketch pad or laptop. Not a product of the Quran given credence to the savagery of man.

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commercial and underground electronic music (house/techno/trance/other) will surpass today's hip hop/pop/rock/country in worldwide interest...if it has'nt already.

Really?

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Originally posted by Kismet7 The funny thing about Sam Harris's distorted perceptions and beliefs is that his whole philosophy is based on lies and stories told through a box that generated enormous revenue for a small group of people (and im not talking about the media or cable company.) Primarily because radicalism and fundamentalism, Al Qaeda, Taliban etc...are fully controlled by NON Muslim funded organizations and corporations that profit off of extremism, the charades of "fundamentalists". Fundamentalism (the thing that has helped sell these multi trillion dollar wars) was created in a boardroom...on perhaps a sketch pad or laptop. Not a product of the Quran given credence to the savagery of man.

What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

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Truly.

Blows your mind dont it? That pretty much everything you have believed the past 10 years = well conceived lie.

Of course what I have just said is inconceivable if people limit themselves to what they hear from the crooks that keep selling them lies, and dont do any qualitative reasoning of their own.

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commercial and underground electronic music (house/techno/trance/other) will surpass today's hip hop/pop/rock/country in worldwide interest...if it has'nt already.

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Originally posted by Domesticated What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

It has to do with a few of Harris's talking points about religion and morality, he is more of an ignorant racist than any sort of philosopher or thinker. And much of what he says is so damn canned and pre prescribed. And he totally failed to answer the moderator's questions properly. An intellectual imposter with some beliefs based on lies. Not much more...

wiki

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Harris has recently talked publicly about experimenting with MDMA as a student and the powerful insights he felt it gave him into spirituality and psychology.

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commercial and underground electronic music (house/techno/trance/other) will surpass today's hip hop/pop/rock/country in worldwide interest...if it has'nt already.