quote:

Originally posted by Ravist I still do not think you understand what we are trying to tell you.

He fully does understand everything you guys are telling him. Years before he posted in this thread, he was keenly aware of the industry practices. Only now, where he senses a nebulous murky area where some common disagreement is still plausible (well, he wouldn't argue that the sky isn't blue), can he continue to inject his continually ignorant intransigence.

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my old stuff, not quite up to snuff - but I still dig it - UPDATED 9/23/2012

Well, I can say for certain that starting from the ground up is the better way to go. I do have an audio degree, but my audio degree was not $20,000 per semester, but the program that I took gets a lot of respect from the FCC (Who have recently given them TV broadcasting licensing I think), and Disney (Who gave them an SSL console)...

That said, since I'm trying to do Foley and location sound, I have been working as a PA, aka the unpaid bottom of the rung intern that does what it's told. The experience there is far more valuable, as I've learned stuff outside of my field of interest...Not to mention the networking is awesome. Have a few people offering me work now.

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So that's it . you now have 3 people telling you that degree level education, aside from being useful for yourself and possibly the latter stages of your career does help help you get in to a studio.

These three people are from different walks of the same industry - composing, engineering and foley/post, all with the same experience.

@msz / if you want to get in to studio work, you need the basics of protools, signal flow and good sharp problem solving skills.

Next, make a list of studios that you'd like to work for and find out who the studio managers are - in most cases they are the people who hire the runners.

Most people get in to a studio through some connection to someone who already works there and that connection gets them an intro to the studio manager. The rest is down to you and you ability to commit to them in a professional and eager manner.

signal flow is easily the most important thing there is to know. signal flow and having a great visual memory of how the studios patch bay works. especially if you get far enough to be an assistant engineering, knowing what you're working with and being on top of your game are the most beneficial to climbing higher and higher up the ladder.

i had to know every piece of outboard gear there was when i was at red barn studios last weekend. you can learn everything by reading pdf's and books, without going to a school, but i always preferred hands on learning to just reading words

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN So that's it . you now have 3 people telling you that degree level education, aside from being useful for yourself and possibly the latter stages of your career does help help you get in to a studio. These three people are from different walks of the same industry - composing, engineering and foley/post, all with the same experience. @msz / if you want to get in to studio work, you need the basics of protools, signal flow and good sharp problem solving skills. Next, make a list of studios that you'd like to work for and find out who the studio managers are - in most cases they are the people who hire the runners. Most people get in to a studio through some connection to someone who already works there and that connection gets them an intro to the studio manager. The rest is down to you and you ability to commit to them in a professional and eager manner.

Pretty much.

For those of you that are just interested in working with audio, not specifically music, you're better off working on sets. Each set has a different crew most of the time, so you're making yourself known to a good 25 people each time, as opposed to putting your bets on five studio engineers and hoping for the best.

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quote:

Originally posted by jupiterone signal flow is easily the most important thing there is to know. signal flow and having a great visual memory of how the studios patch bay works. especially if you get far enough to be an assistant engineering, knowing what you're working with and being on top of your game are the most beneficial to climbing higher and higher up the ladder. i had to know every piece of outboard gear there was when i was at red barn studios last weekend. you can learn everything by reading pdf's and books, without going to a school, but i always preferred hands on learning to just reading words

Very true - but be careful about the patch bay thing, don't just rely on knowing or being really comfortable with patchbays - nearly every studio that does score work (including you know where ) uses desks that have digital (computer based) patch bays so the entire thing is done by naming and patching in a computer, which then has to correspond to all the tie lines going I/O for the studio kit.

Even though the theory is the same, it can get really complicated on a 264 channel desk with for 4 x fully maxed out protools HD rigs and studio literally packed with mics.

Any that's why I say know your signal flow in your head, because you'll have to both combine physical patching and computer based patching. This is one of the main tasks given to the assistant engineer and you have to do it every day.

school = waste of time.

depends for what. Learning is never a waste of time. Waste of money ? That all depends on the person and how they apply it.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN So that's it . you now have 3 people telling you that degree level education, aside from being useful for yourself and possibly the latter stages of your career does help help you get in to a studio. These three people are from different walks of the same industry - composing, engineering and foley/post, all with the same experience. @msz / if you want to get in to studio work, you need the basics of protools, signal flow and good sharp problem solving skills. Next, make a list of studios that you'd like to work for and find out who the studio managers are - in most cases they are the people who hire the runners. Most people get in to a studio through some connection to someone who already works there and that connection gets them an intro to the studio manager. The rest is down to you and you ability to commit to them in a professional and eager manner.

3 people vs X amount of people with unclouded logical thinking ability. Winner the latter.

The only way what you and the 2 other people are saying would be reasonable is if we changed the case to "Is it better to get a studio education through a school, or through applying at a studio and starting as a runner boy". But the case was actually based on, "who would have a better chance at landing an engineering gig at a well equipped studio...a person without an education or someone with an education." If the question was indeed which is the better route to being a sound engineer? Then i'd say its 50/50, for some people a runner boy beginning would be great, and some doing a recording school would be great way towards being a sound engineer.

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commercial and underground electronic music (house/techno/trance/other) will surpass today's hip hop/pop/rock/country in worldwide interest...if it has'nt already.

Who says that they both cannot be hired? It's free work. Almost no one who wishes to be an audio engineer, boom operator, location mixer, or any of that will start where they want to, even with their fancy music school certificate. They will be a runner and work from there. This industry has always been like this and will be for a very long time.

If I were a studio owner I would not mind giving either one a shot, and going from there. Given what I have heard, I'd probably boot the trained one because he or she would be a snob with a sense of entitlement.

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quote:

Originally posted by Kismet7 3 people vs X amount of people with unclouded logical thinking ability. Winner the latter. The only way what you and the 2 other people are saying would be reasonable is if we changed the case to "Is it better to get a studio education through a school, or through applying at a studio and starting as a runner boy". But the case was actually based on, "who would have a better chance at landing an engineering gig at a well equipped studio...a person without an education or someone with an education." If the question was indeed which is the better route to being a sound engineer? Then i'd say its 50/50, for some people a runner boy beginning would be great, and some doing a recording school would be great way towards being a sound engineer.

No I'm(and they are) not saying that - don't twist it now.

I have an audio engineering education, and I wouldn't swap it for anything -it taught me all the theory and there are many TA's that I have encouraged to go to audio engineering schools like the on I attended.

What we have been saying all along is that a degree will not get you a job in a studio any faster or better than someone with a basic understanding (even self taught) of the principles.

You're going to start at the bottom regardless or your level of education - that's how it is - they are not going to take a chance on you just because you sat through a degree program. The problem with your logic is that you are not taking the professional context in to account:

So many pro engineers learnt on the job rather than in a school (both in the past and present) that they do not hold some higher level of respect for someone that has a degree in Audio engineering. They just don't care - it's about the qualities of the person, especially how practically smart they are - to people like that academic achievements are meaningless.

In a lot of cases I have witnessed, the problem has been made worse by universities jumping on the commercial bandwagon, offering degrees to people to cash in on the success of audio engineering courses offered by small private institutions.

In many cases they are suspicious of people because their mindset is "why didn't you learn it like everyone else, by either going to one of the certificate program schools that only take a few months or a year (or so) or learning is job through starting at the bottom, as I did?".

And here is another problem with degrees in audio engineering.

My school was one year long, 40+ hours per week studying no less than 12 subjects at any one time was the absolute minimum, and this doesn't even take in to account the studio time and off site engineering we had to put in for coursework.

Nearly ever music technologist degree candidate I've ever known does maybe 10-15 hours a week in class (especially during the first year or two) and it only really gets intense in the last year.

Don't get me wrong, there's been times I WISH I had done a degree (for visa related reasons) but not for my profession and not for working in studios period.

You have to realize that the first few months working at a studio as a runner gives you ample opportunity to get your knowledge of the subject matter to the level it needs to be if you get the chance to engineer. You just need to know the basics and have your head screwed on and be seriously eager.

End of story.

I'm not trying to make you feel stupid for doing a degree, it will help you later in your career and you may learn faster once at higher levels of the job, but it's not going to make you brew a better cup of tea or make the studio manager pick you over the guy who has a certificate from a local school and came better presented at the interview.