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SOOOOOOOO UNLESS you where THERE...and saw the horror...not knowing whether another plane was coming or if you where going to make it off that island alive...seeing 110 story buildings fall to the ground and people dieing....DONT SAY SHIT..... IT WAS AAAALLLLOOOOTTTTTT DIFFERENT IN PERSON THEN WHAT U SAW ON TELEVISION AND NEWSPAPERS....ALOT!!!!!...... SO FUUUCCCCKKKK OFFFFFFFF........

nicely put, ive been to the site...ive seen ground zero - i dont even WANT to imagine seeing it as it unfolded

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umm I hate to tell you but stereotyping is a basic cognitive function which all humans must do to anticipate how they will act in situations. It is essential for hypothesising and accessing a situation. If we didn't stereotype we would never know what to expect and how to deal with our daily lives.

very good point, but this is like saying that if i travel to the UK, and i happen to get mugged by someone, that i should be wary of every brit that i then encounter.

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1. Well take your fucking point else where, we are trying to discuss the true intentions of war against Iraq / Americas foreign policies, fuck sake..

how about you take your point elsewhere, maybe we dont give a fuck what your opinion of the "generalized american public" or our foreign policy happens to be. how about you worry about your own country's foreign policy and whats going on in your homeland, and get off these nuts. if it were up to me, no bush wouldnt be in office, but my vote was one of many. yes, he has a bullshit propoganda, but the load of shit thats been coming out of your mouth and onto this thread is almost to the point of matching it, so get fucked. blunine over and out, 'n hittin the campari

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Originally posted by Hybrid Junkie umm I hate to tell you but stereotyping is a basic cognitive function which all humans must do to anticipate how they will act in situations. It is essential for hypothesising and accessing a situation. If we didn't stereotype we would never know what to expect and how to deal with our daily lives. Here's an example "Hmm coffee was hot when I first had, all (most) coffee's are probably hot" so when you have a coffee for the second time you will be careful not to burn yourself. It is a part of incorporating experience with our next experience of the same thing. Here's an example "An American didn't seem to understand that we don't have kangaroos in our backyard, and our island is very small" So I will expect that *some* other Americans will be as ignorant as this one. By the way, It's a continent! Just a note, yes stereotypes become dangerous when you say "Nazis killed people, Germans were nazis, germans kill people" but we're not that stupid... although on a stereotype psychology test in America (yes in the 80's) they answered to questions similar to that nazi thing above and they had a high rate of 85%, yet in Australia and other countries like Russia it was as low as 20%... So we don't hate americans, we were never bashing you, we were just putting forward our distress, pity, and annoyance at the US government. In No Way were we bashing any of you individuals, nor EVERY AMERICAN. Just america in general, based on our prior experience and knowledge.

excusing yourself for flaws in the human way of acting is no reply whatsover . It's only justification in hopes of making pass off what's been done as not being as bad as it really is.
Human nature sucks, and my life motto is : people are stupid.. ask around , people have heard me say this.
And if you think further in this, you'll see that's it's true.
humans = denial, excuses, lies, traitors, and the list goes on.
THESE ARE ALL EXCUSES for our wrong behavior, yet everyone including you and sometimes me, will use them.
Can you please try to make an effort in what we actually say, like you stereotyping that coffee will always be hot based on the idea you previously had hot coffee, yet I prefer calling that anticipation in advance, somewhat but still NOT COMMON SENSE, instead of actual stereotype, which I do not have a dictionnary under hand to check the actual meaning, but it pretty much means :
making ones belief, applied to all similar circumstances, locations, or objects.
It's us as all that have to make an effort to pull away from that habit and try to show the contrary , to my lifes strongest belief : people are stupid.

read

and

medidate.


ps . sothis and tta might be up in your face, and not only them but most of us disagree on a wide range of points, let's please try to respect one anothers opinion and if ones point of view is flawed, PROVE IT , WITH ACTUAL FACTS..... then again I know good and well, that is TO MUCH TO ASK from most of you, since you've only experienced america or australia or rest of the world through the medias negative and "evil" and truth deforming powers ( you people know who you are , don't be in denial of this key factor! that is only one thing I ask ! ), and will only repeat what you heard from one other person who heard it from one other person etc.


PEACE


jdat , an actual living person, making a conscious effort, day by day , to try to be a better person, a better human, and not be flawed in actions thoughts or words.

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Originally posted by tiesto14 i started to read this thread...but ONCE again it turned into HOW America is at fault for the attacks,,,blah blah.... all i gotta say is this....I was there....like Renegade...i saw the planes hit those buildings and i saw people jumping and i saw full grown police men so scared out fo their minds all they could do was cry...and it TAKES ALOT to make a NYPD cop to cry.... SOOOOOOOO UNLESS you where THERE...and saw the horror...not knowing whether another plane was coming or if you where going to make it off that island alive...seeing 110 story buildings fall to the ground and people dieing....DONT SAY SHIT..... IT WAS AAAALLLLOOOOTTTTTT DIFFERENT IN PERSON THEN WHAT U SAW ON TELEVISION AND NEWSPAPERS....ALOT!!!!!...... SO FUUUCCCCKKKK OFFFFFFFF........

OOOH FFS let me get this straight:

• So unless I was there on 9/11 I do not have the right to have an opinion?
  
• 11 september's tragedy is worse than what's happening in the rest of the world because it happened to YOU?
  
• it's worse because it happened to AMERICANS?
  

FFS, I honestly don't believe you are this ignorant
Go live in Afghanistan/Palestine/Isreal for a couple of months...see the other sides

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...We had that lightswitch installed so you could turn the lights on - and off. NOT SO YOU COULD HAVE LIGHTSWITCH RAVES! now let's go break open that glowstick and poor it into homestarrunner's mountain dew! I heared they have to pump your stomach when you drink that stuff...

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Originally posted by jdat jdat , an actual living person, making a conscious effort, day by day , to try to be a better person, a better human, and not be flawed in actions thoughts or words.

wow, I can see that (at least today) it's actually proving to work

___________________
...We had that lightswitch installed so you could turn the lights on - and off. NOT SO YOU COULD HAVE LIGHTSWITCH RAVES! now let's go break open that glowstick and poor it into homestarrunner's mountain dew! I heared they have to pump your stomach when you drink that stuff...

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Originally posted by ampburner wow, I can see that (at least today) it's actually proving to work

yeah, cheers jdat, sounds like you know what you are talking about. I agree with you on the distinction between anticipated expectations, and stereotypes. I want to clarify on what you said further:

coffee is an inanimate object, it's reasonable to assume that all coffees are hot. (even though that might not be true, it's a good guess, just to be safe)

however, for example, muslims, are not inanimate objects. they are living breathing people with thoughts and dreams. to see one muslim fly a plane into a building, and then assume everyone else that is muslim would do the same is stereotyping, and is obviously very stupid as well.

even worse, the muslim religion is NOT about jihad and hatred, it is about tolerance. there is a very small radical faction of fanatics that are carrying out this jihad against america. similar to radical christian factions, such as the Waco Cult, david koresh et al.

so, an entire religion is being stereotyped for the actions of a few. and you know what is even WORSE? many dumb people assume that someone is muslim, just because they look "arabic" and they have a turban on. many of these people are hindu, or even christian.

this did not stop hundreds of brown skinned people being beaten, imprisoned, and even killed in america following september 11th.

this is stereotyping. and no, i don't need to type it in huge letters.

Yes, I don't see much point in stereotyping. It may be a natural human instinct, but then so is shitting in the woods. I'd like to think that all (or at least most ) of us have evolved beyond the need to do either.

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Go live in Afghanistan/Palestine/Isreal for a couple of months...see the other sides

And I think that this is the main point here. By marching into countires and overthrowing whoever the feel like, the Americans are causing more pain (both for themselves and for the citizens of the country they are invading) then if they would simply expect that they do not have the right to act in defiance to the opinion of the UN - or of most of the countries on this planet - simply because they don't like the leader.

Saddam may have weapons. However, it's fairly certain that he doesn't have anything sophisticated enough to warrant an invasion to rid him of them. Besides, the only country, at this stage, that he'd be likely to use his weapons against would be the US: he is a massive supporter of the UK (and bases himself - or so he'd like to think - on Winston Churchill)and actively encourages the consumption of UK foodstuffs. He isn't at war with the west, he is at war the US. He - and the majority of Muslim terrorists I'd suspect - do not see this as a war between the Middle-East and the west, or between Islaam and Christianity (as the US media may have you believe) they are at war, put simply, with America. They vehemantly disagree with US foreign policy, particularly with their milatary occupation in several arab nations, and their active support for the nation of Isreal (whereas I believe the support should be impartial and focussed squarely on acheiving peace). Whether Americans or American politicians disagree with these sentiments, the answer is simple: meet them half way. I know that the US has a policy about not negotiating with terrorists, but in all seriousness, it's the most sensible option.

If the US were to remove their military and political presence from the middle east, and allow these countries to exist as they are (providing they don't cause any international trouble) without having "Big Brother" telling them how to act (become a democracy, become capitalist, build a McDonalds etc.) then they wouldn't have a problem with terrorism. No other western countries have been targetted by any major, Middle-East based factions, so why do you suppose the US is?

No, before I appear as though I'm very one-sided on the issue, I will say this. The people who flew the planes into the WTC are evil. The people who orchestrated the attacks are evil and certainly deserved to be brought to justice. Sadam Hussein is a pickle short a big mac, and the Gulf War was justified - he had no right to invade, and I agree with the response of the US and of the rest of the world to stop him. Similarly I believe he is wrong to prevent UN weapons inspectors to look at his sites (although I am led to believe he did - in a way - invite some UN inspectors in, but the UN were unsatisfied with his offer) and Iraq will almost certainly be a better place to live once his regime has ended.

However, I will also say this, which I have already said once in a different thread: Sadam Hussein doesn't scare me, neither does Osama Bin Laden. George Bush does. He is a rash, irrational cowboy who doesn't quite seem to understand the responsibility he owes to the people of this planet.

After his mission to go in and depose Sadam Hussein comes off, I suggest that the rest of the world go in and depose him. Perhaps then, the UN inspectors will be able to inspect the US weapons facilities with the same scrutiny George Bush expects from the Iraqi sites.

The man has his finger on the button: please drag him away from it before he kills us all.

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Originally posted by ampburner OOOH FFS let me get this straight: So unless I was there on 9/11 I do not have the right to have an opinion? 11 september's tragedy is worse than what's happening in the rest of the world because it happened to YOU? it's worse because it happened to AMERICANS? FFS, I honestly don't believe you are this ignorant Go live in Afghanistan/Palestine/Isreal for a couple of months...see the other sides

i NEVER once said it is worse then any other fucked up situation in the world....

what i mean is this...everyone says the US should not get their revenge..but if you where there and u knew people who died that day..you would want revenge...

and all the other situations going on in the world are happening in war times...where the people (soldiers and civilians) are aware that a bombing is in the horizon and that the propability of an attack is inevitable...on the other hand...the people in the WTC had no clue...we where not in war times and had no warning what so ever...see the difference?

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Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

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Originally posted by Renegade And I think that this is the main point here. By marching into countires and overthrowing whoever the feel like, the Americans are causing more pain (both for themselves and for the citizens of the country they are invading) then if they would simply expect that they do not have the right to act in defiance to the opinion of the UN - or of most of the countries on this planet - simply because they don't like the leader.

UM do you really beleive that the U.S. is attacking Afghanistand and soon Iraq because we simply don't like them?....thats absurd.

we are attacking Afghanistan for reasons that don't have to be explained...and we are going to attack Iraq because Hussein is a mad man that refuses UN inspectors to come in and he will eventually attack us.....so are we supposed to sit idley by and wait for him to attack?...which WILL happen when he's ready...or should we bomb him now (or soon) to avoid it?....

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade Saddam may have weapons. However, it's fairly certain that he doesn't have anything sophisticated enough to warrant an invasion to rid him of them. Besides, the only country, at this stage, that he'd be likely to use his weapons against would be the US: he is a massive supporter of the UK (and bases himself - or so he'd like to think - on Winston Churchill)and actively encourages the consumption of UK foodstuffs.

oooohhhhhh so if theres ONLY a chance to bomb the U.S. it's ok?...LOL...and intelligence has warned us that Hussein has chemical/biological weapons in the works...and has tryed on several occasions to purchase nuclear weapons.......

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Originally posted by Renegade He isn't at war with the west, he is at war the US. He - and the majority of Muslim terrorists I'd suspect - do not see this as a war between the Middle-East and the west, or between Islaam and Christianity (as the US media may have you believe) they are at war, put simply, with America..

exactley....and in war the strongest survives...thats why we have to bomb them NOW and not eait for them to make the first move.

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade If the US were to remove their military and political presence from the middle east, and allow these countries to exist as they are (providing they don't cause any international trouble) without having "Big Brother" telling them how to act (become a democracy, become capitalist, build a McDonalds etc.) then they wouldn't have a problem with terrorism. No other western countries have been targetted by any major, Middle-East based factions, so why do you suppose the US is?..

the U.S. has been targetted with terrorism for a long time...Omar Kudafee (spelling?) was behind the Pan Am - Lockerbie, Scotland bombing...which was in 1988...and then before that there was all the hijackings in the 70s....and McDondalds...that doesnt have anything to do with the U.S. government...that has to do with U.S. corporations....and McDonalds and the such dont jus open where they please...the countries who allow the establishments WANT them to build the economy because they bring big dollars to their states...

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade However, I will also say this, which I have already said once in a different thread: Sadam Hussein doesn't scare me, neither does Osama Bin Laden. George Bush does. He is a rash, irrational cowboy who doesn't quite seem to understand the responsibility he owes to the people of this planet.

RASH?...more then Osama?...lets see Osama orchestrated the attacks...Bush rettaliated.....whats more rash?....Osama holds deadley evil terrorist camps aimed at killing the innocent ...you have to be kidding me....u may not like Bush but to say he is more irrational then Osama is absurd.


WHAT realy cracks me up is the fact that if the attacks NEVER happended people would not think Bush is this war happy president.....this all started after we where attacked and he retaliated....i dont understand...would you guys of like if Bush did nothing in response to the attacks?...you can't be serious......he did what ANY good leader would do..he went back at the attacks with vengence.....maybe you guys wants pussys as your leaders but i want a man who will not sit back idley by while little terrorists regimes decide they wanna kill a few thousand civilians...in non war times..

and u may think Bush is crazy and all that because he retaliated...which is absurd...but anyway...imagine if Osama had nuclear weapons or Hussein or Kudafee or Palestine and blah blah....if they did they would use them...so whatever.....

and if Bush is so nuts then so are the leaders of Pakistan and India..they both had their fingers on the nuke button a few months back...so they are nuts too..no worse then Bush...and what about in 1963 with the Cuban Missle crisis....i guess the leader of Russia (forgot his name from then) was nuts also liek Bush..because he was moving missiles into Cuba so he would have them ready to attack America froma better location...

ALL LEADERS are nuts in the end....

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Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

Last edited by tiesto14 on Aug-22-2002 at 17:18

hmm... Renegade, i really like what you had to say.

tiesto14.. you have some valid points, but.. still, you need to look a bit deeper.

i'm not going to waste my time going into everything, but.. do you really think US corporations and US governments are that separate?

Big buisness has both the republican and democratic parties securely tucked away in their back pocket.

and, the richest big business of all, the oil industry, is most responsible for this. guess what, george bush junior, and senior are from texas, and very involved in the oil buisness. they make billions on oil. and will make trillions more if they can take over afghanistan.

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and allow these countries to exist as they are

yep... and these same countries, while burning american flags and teaching their children how evil the U.S. is, still beg us for foreign aid. they want us to fund their food and living situations, yet talk shit about how evil we are. it kind of bothers me.

personally, ive always thought we should just not help any other country, and be self sufficient. if third world countries are going to keep sucking away my taxpayers money while condemning us in the same breath... lets just pull out and let them kill themselves off.

but see? we cant even win in that way... because then we will be the bad guy for not continuing to give out billions of dollars to help these countries which hate us.

we just cant win. at all. no matter what we do, this country is seen as evil.

i still say let them kill themselves off. im sick of the attitude about this country after we help them. id rather see my taxpayers money go towards this country, helping our homeless population, our hunger... than support people who hate us anyways. whats the point.

oh, and for those of you who think me saying "let them kill themselves off" is harsh, think of it this way

what other countries are out there, being the policeman of the world? thats right, NO ONE.. except the U.S.. if we were not around to do this, what do you think would happen? think these third world countries would figure it out by themselves? i predict killing themselves off anyways. shrug.

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Originally posted by JohnSmith i'm not going to waste my time going into everything, but.. do you really think US corporations and US governments are that separate?

well some corparations YES.....however it still depends on the foreign countreis to ALLOW these establishments in...they want them...yes of course the companies like mcDonalds asks if they can come...but the countries CAN refuse...they dont ..why because they bring the big bucks and jobs...so the blame lies more in the foreign states then the U.S.

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Originally posted by JohnSmith and, the richest big business of all, the oil industry, is most responsible for this. guess what, george bush junior, and senior are from texas, and very involved in the oil buisness. they make billions on oil. and will make trillions more if they can take over afghanistan.

hhhmmmm actually thats not true....we get the majority of our oil from Alaska, Canada and a few other places i forgot...not from Afghanistan...it is the European nations who get it from there..and so if Afghanistans oil supply is damaged Eurpoean natiosn will then dip into our main sources...thats why we are concerned about the oil..because when they dip into our other sources are prices go up...but honestly we get very little oil from Afghanisatn

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Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!