quick question/s... letz try n analize wat the war between israel and palestinians is all about.... actually wat is the war all about?

1)wat do the palestinians wish to gain from their objectives... (besides israel forces pulling out of their land)
2)wat is it that the israelies are doing to the palestinians, that are pissing them off... (besides retaliation)
3)does this war have nethign to do with the past wars where palestine wanted to be itz own state or something? or is it entirely different?

i myself am not entirely sure wat the suicide bombings are all about... wat is their main goal? (palestinians)

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under construction

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Originally posted by dj_nomiz quick question/s... letz try n analize wat the war between israel and palestinians is all about.... actually wat is the war all about? 1)wat do the palestinians wish to gain from their objectives... (besides israel forces pulling out of their land) 2)wat is it that the israelies are doing to the palestinians, that are pissing them off... (besides retaliation) 3)does this war have nethign to do with the past wars where palestine wanted to be itz own state or something? or is it entirely different? i myself am not entirely sure wat the suicide bombings are all about... wat is their main goal? (palestinians)

1) The Palestinians want land (something I believe they deserve), and the extremists will not be satisfied until the state of Israel does not exist.
2)Israel is not giving them the land, because that would send the message that terrorism is the way to deal with them (basically the same rationale used in anti-terrorist policy all over the world - as a general rule a state will not grant a terrorist's requests).
3)The past you speak of never ended, the latest events are just a continuation of an ongoing conflict.

What people don't realise is that Arafat and the extremists are in the same camp. At the last camp David meeting supervised by Clinton, something like over 90% of the land the Palestinians have been demanding all these years was offered by Barak... The most generous offer Israel had ever made by far - Apparently Clinton nearly fell off his chair when he heard it. Most Israelis were horrified at the vastness of the offer, and many analysts suggested that had the offer been accepted, it would have meant the eventual disappearance of Israel - in fact that was the reason Barak lost the following elections. Arafats answer: "He can go to hell!". Right now the Palestinians have Nothing, if they had accepted the proposal they would at least have had an autonomous position from which to argue for their rights. However Arafat agin proved to be unreasonable.
As for the extremists, many say that they have no choice, but they have never tried any other way to get what they want, and hence sabotage their own cause every time one of them blows himself up(unless their ultimate aim is to kill as many Israelis as possible)

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Originally posted by biznology i like how no one has been commenting on my post? or have peeps been? you all blames us for training them, etc, etc. but what would happen if we didnt do that, or we didnt involve ourselves in the world like I commented before? the world wouldnt be peacy man.

Actually, I was going to answer your question, but kind of forgot when reading the rest of the thread.
I believe that were the US to disappear from the face of the earth two things would happen: Firstly, Arab countries and Israel would go for the big showdown. Israel probably winning initially. Secondly, the demand for oil would be lessened in an instant making countries such as Kuwait and Saudiarabia without any kind of income. Eventually, over the course of several wars, Arab countries would get poorer and poorer until they - like Russia a decade ago - collapse and are forced to adopt "western values". The new superpower would be Russia or the EU.

And that's what I believe...which brings me neatly to something else...

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Originally posted by Izzy ...it is supposed to give you facts... a man was killed today - fact the one who killed him was a white catholic male - fact the sun will rise tomorrow at 7:16am - fact

When reading your previous posts I was concerned that you might have been a bit on the naive side, but this post clears it up: When you are refering to a "fact" (e.g. "Saddam still has chemical weapons", "Hizbollah is centered in Iran") you are actually talking about something you are pretty sure about, rather than something you *know*.
You do not know whether the sun will rise tomorrow, nor do you know what kind of weapons are hidden in Iraq. You may be convinced that it is so, but when you state things as facts, you should be aware that for a great many of us, a fact is something like "TA is a trance website", "2+2=4" and the like. Instead of writing "fact:" you should write "I think:". Then you will not be misunderstood, at least not by me

Last edited by trancaholic on Oct-01-2002 at 10:44

well said trancaholic

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Originally posted by ProDiGaL If a person is muslim that will always be mentioned, if they are black that will be mwntioned. When was the last time you saw on the news "today a white catholic man commited murder today" you wont, because its not relevant you will say, so why is it relevent when the person is from a minority group??

So what about the Catholic Church and what has been going with their priests...i see that all over the media..your trying to say that the media didn't spread that like a disease..

Here's my opinion, for what it's worth... I'm an avid news reader and watcher, and I like to think my opinions are reasonably informed:

I think Hussein's administration, with its existing and imminent potential for large-scale attacks, is a threat to international security.

What holds the system of international relations together is the idea of sovereignty, but this can be overridden in international law (I think) by a resolution of the UN.

If the US-led allied forces attack Iraq, it must occur with the backing of the UN Security Council. Without this support, an attack on Iraq is an act of terrorism (forcing a change in behaviour through fear -- i.e. the Iraqi people withdrawing support for Hussein).

Bush MUST obtain UN support for any strike on Iraq; otherwise he is no better than Bin Laden, and will certainly be responsible for far many more civilian deaths.

I also think that an attack on Iraq, given the recent escalation of violence and tension in the Middle East, is a risky proposition that carries with it a high likelihood of becoming a major international conflict, fought across many borders and regions.

I hope all the leaders involved fully understand the consequences of any action (or lack thereof) against Iraq. I know I don't, and I'm not sure many of us can. That is all.

Peace, everyone.

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Originally posted by trancaholic When reading your previous posts I was concerned that you might have been a bit on the naive side, but this post clears it up: When you are refering to a "fact" (e.g. "Saddam still has chemical weapons", "Hizbollah is centered in Iran") you are actually talking about something you are pretty sure about, rather than something you *know*. You do not know whether the sun will rise tomorrow, nor do you know what kind of weapons are hidden in Iraq. You may be convinced that it is so, but when you state things as facts, you should be aware that for a great many of us, a fact is something like "TA is a trance website", "2+2=4" and the like. Instead of writing "fact:" you should write "I think:". Then you will not be misunderstood, at least not by me

right so maybe i was wrong mentioning that specific fact, however, i am going to hold to it to explain another thing...
to say the sun will rise tomorrow, is basicly right with about 99.999% sure there is that ounce of slim chance where it might not but people can almost say to near certanty that it will happen. so same thing with all the other stuff i mention. if you're going to be the one who belives in the 0.001% chance that iraq doesnt have chemical weapons (especially with the facts of past history, and the recent british dossier) then i dont want to be around when you find out you're wrong after he had unleashed them on a civilian population.
in fact if you subscribe to certian philosophies, there are no absolute facts, maybe when i said a "man was murdered - fact" maybe really he had a heart attack, right before he was shot but no one would ever find out... maybe the one who killed him said he was catholic in public but secretly he was a satanist and no one will ever know. so maybe you are right maybe there are no real facts when dealing with news. ill just play my odds based on history, and educated opions
hey who knows maybe theres a 0.001% this saddam dude is actually a cool guy and wouldnt hurt a kitten

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Last edited by Izzy on Oct-01-2002 at 15:43

http://stream.realimpact.org/rihurl...a&start=31:45.0

these are actual calls made to many in the US senate, both the republican and democratic sides, asking them abt calls they have been receiving abt the war, u can listen to what the senators themselves are saying in that stream, u will see that most of the calls they have been receiving have been abt NOT going to war...

from democracynow.org

just sumthing to think abt

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Originally posted by Izzy wow i must have hit a nerve, so you dont admit the the center of the hizbollah is orginanized in iran? how about that recent capture of illegal weapons and contrabands that were intercepted on the way to gaza that left an iranian port (the karine A)? i could go on and on. if you still want to say that iran takes no part and isnt involved in terrorism, go right ahead, im not willing to belive that lie. im sorry that people are always asking for evidence to prove someone is guilty of terrorism before attacking them (iraq, PA) ... but even when it is presented people still find more excuses not to do anything... it bugs me...

I think what the guy was trying to say is that the Iranian government doesn't openly choose to have terrorists operating in it's country, nor does it fund them. I could just as easily say that America harbours and funds terrorism (money from people in the USA make up 90% of the IRA's funding I believe).
Also I don't think Hizbollah would even exist if the Palestinians were allowed any power of sort in Israel, even a police force with some authority that isn't attacked with Apache helicopters (kindly donated by the US government) every other week would probably go a long way.

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Originally posted by Az Also I don't think Hizbollah would even exist if the Palestinians were allowed any power of sort in Israel, even a police force with some authority that isn't attacked with Apache helicopters (kindly donated by the US government) every other week would probably go a long way.

you are so full of shit, they have a police force, weach, as i remind you last year helped the civilians torturing two soldiers, handing guns to terrorist groups and children weach were by the way given to from our very army. besides that they just sit at home and fart all day.

oh yeah and those apaches are bought by millions of dollars, not donated...

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Originally posted by Narcotic Mind you are so full of shit, they have a police force, weach, as i remind you last year helped the civilians torturing two soldiers, handing guns to terrorist groups and children weach were by the way given to from our very army. besides that they just sit at home and fart all day. oh yeah and those apaches are bought by millions of dollars, not donated...

the way the palestinians are treated by the Israeli government is the main reason the Middle East is such a hostile place, admittedly Islamic Fundamentalist nutcases don't help, but whats going on is bordering on Ethnic Cleansing, and Sharon does whatever the fuck he wants cos he knows he'll get away with it, cos the good ol US of A are his best buds

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* during the past half century US aid to Israel has totaled a whoppng $81.3 billion (November 2001 Congressional Research Service report)

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* for 2003, the Bush administration is proposing that Israel receive $2.76 billion in foreign aid, mostly in the form of military hardware

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* in the past decade alone, the United States has sold Israel $7.2 billion in weaponry and military equipment--everything from fighter planes and attack helicopters to machine guns and grenade launchers

I'm not going to post in this thread again, as it's blatantly obvious you have your opinion about whats right, and the rest of the world has theres....
Good Day

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Originally posted by Az the way the palestinians are treated by the Israeli government is the main reason the Middle East is such a hostile place, admittedly Islamic Fundamentalist nutcases don't help, but whats going on is bordering on Ethnic Cleansing, and Sharon does whatever the fuck he wants cos he knows he'll get away with it, cos the good ol US of A are his best buds

lets analyze this, you said the israeli government is the main reason for the problems the mid-east is facing... to prove you that the islamic fundametalists are the root of the problem lets look at the period of 1992 to 2000. during that time. the PA was granted complete control socially and secuirty wise over or around a third of the 'occupied' territories ('A' lands) with another third where israel and PA share security control ('B' lands). these actions would lead up to the creation of a palestinian state (which i belive should exsist). one could rationaly argue that during that time the israeli goverment had no involvment in the daily lives of palestians living under the PA's control... however there was always the constant of terrorism. suicide bombers carried out actions in israel proper on all the israeli prime ministers in that time, rabin, peres, netanyahu and barak. therefore i dont see the israeli government as the root of the problem (ones who offered and are willing to live in peace), but rather the islamic fundametalists (who arent willing to live in peace as long is israel exsists).

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