quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 Micro and Macro,you can't mess that up. Micro means small,macro means big. Huge difference. Next, you will be telling me, "That depends upon what the meaning of the word "is" , is.

That was a nice touch there with the Clinton attack.


We need to improve education in our country as you can plainly see.

Some funding might be nice for one thing.

quote:

FORD Discusses Education on CNN MEMPHIS, TENN. – Congressman Harold Ford (D-Tenn.) appeared on CNN Live Today this morning to discuss President Bush's visit to Knoxville and the "No Child Left Behind" education initiative, which has been underfunded by $15 billion. Below is the transcript of the interview: DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Well, we had to regroup here a little bit. We have the Democratic Congressman, Harold Ford, with us. We had planned to get him live on television to react to what we were listening to the woman from the White House, Margaret Spellings. The television set wasn't working so well, but we did want to hear from the Congressman so we're going to talk to him on the phone. Congressman Ford, good morning. REP. HAROLD FORD (D), TENNESSEE: Good morning, Daryn. Good morning to all your listeners. KAGAN: Thanks for going with the flow with us, and not just resorting to the phone. Let's get to some of the issues here. Hey, look who's coming to town or at least to your state today. That would be none other than President Bush, touting his No Child Left Behind policies. FORD: You know, we're excited to have him for a number of reasons. I know that he will come and talk about the success of No Child Left Behind. But I hope he's also willing to listen carefully to some of the educators and parents and superintendents and school board members who are living the reality of implementing No Child Left Behind. In theory, it's a great bill. I supported it and helped traffic it in the Congress. But in practice, we're not fully funding it. It's not allowing teachers and school districts the flexibility needed to teach kids, and it needs some tinkering. And one of things in Congress we proposed in a concrete way is to suspend all the punitive parts of No Child Left Behind until the president funds No Child Left Behind at the levels that he promised more than two years ago. KAGAN: Congressman, I'll ask you a political question, because I know... FORD: Sure. KAGAN: ...this is your life here. Look what the Republicans are doing. Look at some of the issues they're taking a hold of, education, prescription drug care. We can get to immigration in jut a moment. Are the Republicans being the Democrats at their own game? FORD: Yes, I think they're trying to deliver to the American people. The problem is, they're delivering more rhetoric than results. The prescription drug plan won't take place until 2006. The very confusing benefit that is offered to seniors and it's unclear if it will ever be implemented and if indeed seniors will realize the benefits the president promised. On education, I applaud the rhetoric that the president offers. But the reality doesn't match up or doesn't measure up to the rhetoric and he politicizing. You talk to any superintendent, any teacher across the country and they all agree that educators should be held accountable. But they also all agree that resources and flexibility have to accompany the bill. And frankly, that is not happening. And I think if the president listens, instead of talk the entire time in Knoxville and raises money which I know he's doing as well, he'll learn -- and I think in compelling ways -- that No Child Left Behind can work if we make some changes to it.

___________________
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Last edited by DaveSZ on Feb-07-2004 at 10:21

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 It's my choice to improve or not,It's not yours. I'm wrong? Who is saying there is a woman named Lilith in the Bible,and some woman gave birth to demons? Eh. I'm not incorrect. You aren't here to personally attack me,but you're trying to tell me how to type..Hmm,Sounds a bit fishy to me.

Ah, of course it's your choice Nessa, but the choice you make is a reflection of the kind of person you are, and I'm sorry to say that your present choices are reflecting rather poorly on you.

As for the story of Lilith, I don't believe that anybody said it was in the bible, but rather in the original mythology that Genesis was derived from. This is another great example of how you are just skimming over people's posts without absorbing any of the content.

And as for the typing comment, you're grasping at straws. I made that suggestion because your punctuation is attrocious - are you going to tell me that you believe your punctuation is correct and nobody can tell you otherwise?

You need to learn more respect toward people who think differently. Don't just assume that everybody else is a pessimist or a cynic.

The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
- George Bernard Shaw

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quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 uhm,no they don't. You want to explain to me how they do? ( Or atleast how you think they will.) I posted that later in my post. First it says god created plants before humans, and then it says he created humans when there were still no plants around. Clear? [quote]You got pictures? No, Read in Revelation ( I'm pretty sure it's in revelation) Those who take away from the Bible, blessings will be taken from them..and well you get the rest.

The council of Nicaea was a political gathering whose purpose was to modify christianity to be acceptable to larger masses of people. Some things were thrown out of the bible, regardless of whether you think god's blessings will be taken away from the people who did it or not.

quote:

There is no Lilith. You are totally messing everything up. Adam,and Eve. Adam had only one wife,that's Eve. She didn't give birth to demons. What are you smoking,pal?

The story about Lilith is the full version of the jewish myth. Bible contains the shortened version of the creation in which Lilith has been thrown out. Eve didn't give birth to demons, she gave birth to Abel and Seth. If you examine some jewish folk traditions, especially ones related to childbirth, you will see that the name of Lilith often appears with that of Adam and Eve.

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What the heck? There aren't any contradictions. You really must be having an off day.

Who said anything about contradictions here? Can't you read the whole post? This was a response to when you said there are no other gods. Yet in the bible said god will execute judgement upon other gods. If they don't exist, who the hell is he going to execute his judgment upon. Or maybe he's paranoid so he's imagining other gods.

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No,I read them,and no it doesn't say that. I've been reading the verses you've been giving me. But, no there aren't any contradictions.

Gen 1:11 Then god said "let the land produce vegetation...
Gen 1:13 ...on the third day

Gen 1:26 Then god said, "let us make man in our image...
Gen 1:27 God created man in his own image...
Gen 1:31 ...the sixth day

So, here it says god created plants on the 3rd day and humans on the 6th. But, later on the story is a bit different

Gen 2:4,2:5 When the lord god made the earth and the heavens - [b]and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprung up...
Gen 2:7 ...the lord god formed the man...

So here god created man before plants. See the contradiction?

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Glad to hear you don't.No,they don't make sense. I don't see how you can't understand Christianity.

I understand christianity, both how it originated and what it taught through history. That's exactly why I don't believe in it.

quote:

again,there is only one God.

Yet other gods are so often mentioned in the bible.

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No, The virgin birth isn't false. It really happened.

Here's a little example which may help you realize how the mistake occured. In english, the word hot means both warm and spicy. So you tell me "A soup is hot". You wanted to say it's spicy. Yet I translate it into croatian as "Juha je vruca". Then someone else translates it back to english and says "A soup is warm". Get it? Sometimes a single word can mean two different things, and the virgin birth was an unfortunate accident of such a flawed translation.

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I don't see anything in common.

Then obviously you are not familiar with either of those gods. Let me spell it out for you again. Osiris was resurrected. Osiris allowed humans to reach the heavenly afterlife. Osiris was solar god. Jesus's birth is right after the winter equinox, the december 25th. The 12 apostols symbolize 4 seasons and 3 stages of life/day. Jesus symbolizes the sun. The council of Nicaea modified christianity to be closely related to pagan cults in order to absorb their holidays as it's own. Easter was the pagan celbration of fertility. Jesus' resurrection was set to be on the very same day. Coincidence? Hardly. Do you know why there are all those easter bunnies symbolize? Fertility, as they multiply rapidly. Bunnies are remnants of the pagan holiday. So are easter eggs, as they symbolize birth.

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No,Satan was the serpent. Then after the first sin, God had made it to where they didn't have legs..to where they'd have to slither(sp?) around on their bellies. Thus,snakes.

So are you saying that my backyard is full of satans, cause I think there's a snake lair in the vicinity?

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That's not true. Both women,and men are equal. No gender is better than the other. I've already had a few other people tell me that men in the Bible are superior to men and that the men did all the work,but that's not true. (One person also went as far as to say all women were evil,but I find it funny how he praises his girlfriend..heh.people..)

Well, the bible clearly states a woman is Adam's helper, not partner/friend/whatever. Yet another reason why I don't agree with the bible. Have you ever noticed how the old testament condones slavery, poligamy, and incest? Oh, while we're at it, could you explain to me where Cain got his wife from after he was banished from the garden of eden? Well, guess what, you can't because the bible is lacking on that detail. It was most likely Lilith or one of her offspring.

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Freewill,We make our own choices. We know good from evil,do we not?

Yes, but god did not want us to know that.

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The serpent,Satan...He was an angel,if you didn't know. His name was Lucifer,he was the angel of music. Angels don't have freewill. Humans do. God wanted companionship,that's why he made man.

I know that satan was god's prime angel and that his name was Lucifer. However, Lucifer was not a walking talking serpent. He was an angel with fluffy wings that led a rebellion against god.

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No, that's not what happened.

Obviously it didn't because most of the things in bible didn't really happen. But if we for a second consider bible a worthy historical document, then it says there it did.

quote:

Then show me the fossile evidence.

What, do you want me to dig out some skeletons and send them to you via mail? Turn on the discovery channel.

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We haven't come from an ape,but hey if you wanna believe you came from something like that you go ahead.

So how do you explain such fossiles as Australopithecus Afarensis, Homo Habilis, Homo Erectus, etc.? Especially since the older ones bear more resemblence to the chimpanzees, while the newer ones generally resemble modern humans? What happened to all the creatures from http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/species.html? Did they simply die out after Noah brought them back to land? How come they're so similar to modern humans?

quote:

I've already had this discusion, you aren't getting my drift.

Well, say all you want but the your "relationship" with god is pretty much defined as religion.

quote:

I believe in Micro evolution,but not macro. I told you already. Micro evolution is correct,Just not macro.

But how do you differentiate between the two? By saying that once creatures of the same species reach the point where they can no longer mate, micro-evolution has become macro-evolution? God, the point of view you are defending has been valid somewhere around the middle of 19th century.

quote:

Homeschooling should be,and is allowed. It's one of our rights. I don't think anyone should try to trample on those.

I'm sorry but I believe a child's right to be taught non-biased actual facts is more important than a parent's right to educate his children in whichever way they desire. Now, as for home schooling, I accept that in cases such as yours it is the only way possible, but it unfortunately brings around a huge amount of problems, as the obvious bias of the parents who then teach their children in any way they desire.

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Schools do teach actual facts,but they shouldn't tell a child what to believe. That's not a schools place. My views aren't flawed,they just don't match up with yours..but that doesn't make them flawed.

Well, if you look at it that way, everything is based upon believing. You can say that you believe that 2+2=5 and that it's not the school's right to order you to believe otherwise. In a way you are right. Schools are there to teach you valid facts and theories. If you don't want to believe them, regardless of the evidence which supports them, but want to believe some bogus theories instead, well the school can't force you to do otherwise.

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I gave you the title of the book, you either read it and accept it or you don't. That's my proof,It's just as liable as the internet.

Heh, so I'll have to go and find myself a book. You might at least post some short contents which defend your point. You can't really expect that everytime someone disagrees with you he should buy a book that explains your points. And yes, the book may be as liable as the internet, but it is more liable than established peer-reviewed scientific books.

quote:

Macro evolution is false. It's that simple,really.

No, it is not. Again, your stance is "I say it so it must be true".

quote:

Micro evolution,that's true, unflawed. Macro evolution is the issue here.

Well, "macro" evolution is written in a huge amount of scientific journals and books as well. Therefore, using your arguments, it is true.

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Naw,no one is listening. So why chew on the same old fat?

Because the evidence against you is overwhelming while the evidence that supports you is quite shaky.

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Gosh you really can't comprehend can you?

You still haven't explained how the day was created on the first day.

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There isn't any Lilith! Where are you pulling that bull up from? There isn't a Lilith.

Aaargh, for 50th time already, that story was in the old testament and it was thrown out later on.

___________________
1+1=10

Last edited by DrUg_Tit0 on Feb-07-2004 at 14:34

Not trying to defend Nellie, but on the issue of the bible talking about 'gods'.. Tito i think you're misunderstanding it. I think the context in which most of the time they're refered to is as the 'fictional gods' the other people, such as the egiptians believe. As for that one in genesis saying 'us', i don't have a real explanation, but as you said yourself in other context it has been translated so many times and so many versions are out there that it could easily be a translation error.

Also, for that 'day being created on a day', it's more than likely day in two different senses. 'Day and night' as in the distinction between light and dark, and 'day' as a period of 24 hours. Like, an interpertration of it: 'god created the day and night' = 'god created the sun to illuminate earth', got it?

On an unrelated note, let me point my religious views. I was grown as a catholic, and still go to church. Over here, the typical view of bible is that it is very metaphorical and in no way everything must be taken literally. I pretty much believed all of it during a lot of time, but lately being losing most of the faith on it. Nowadays i neither deny the existence of god, neither accept it, these are just possibilities, the concept of 'beleif' itself bring closed-mindness (does this word exist, heh). And I think that if Jesus did really exist and was the son of god, his major message was to give a set of morals and rules for us not to kill each other and **** up our lives, not to force everyone to believe dogmatically in a set of myths and an old book.

Meh.. what a random bunch of ideas.. I am a sucky writer.

___________________
sempre contra a corrente do jogo

quote:

Originally posted by paranoik0 ...I think the context in which most of the time they're refered to is as the 'fictional gods' the other people, such as the egiptians believe. As for that one in genesis saying 'us'

That's all well and good for a few instances, but it doesn't explain the ones like these:

Gen.1:26 - "And God said, let us make man in our image."
Gen.3:22 - "And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil."

quote:

i don't have a real explanation, but as you said yourself in other context it has been translated so many times and so many versions are out there that it could easily be a translation error.

Unfortunately that explanation doesn't really fly here, since in the original Hebrew and Aramaic, there is quite a distinct difference between singular and plural pronouns. I've also read the original text (well, in Hebrew, not Aramaic) and I can assure you that it is indeed in plural form.

quote:

Also, for that 'day being created on a day', it's more than likely day in two different senses. 'Day and night' as in the distinction between light and dark, and 'day' as a period of 24 hours. Like, an interpertration of it: 'god created the day and night' = 'god created the sun to illuminate earth', got it?

That's all well and good too, for when the bible is simply talking about the "nth day" of creation, but how about when it is differentiating between day and night, light and darkness? As we all know, it is night on one side of the earth while it is day on the other, so what could those terms possibly have meant when there was no sun?

quote:

Over here, the typical view of bible is that it is very metaphorical and in no way everything must be taken literally.

That is the typical view of most modern conservative religious sects, including the one I used to be a member of. The "metaphorical" approach is especially true when it comes to Genesis, which is widely accepted even among religious scholars as not to be taken literally at all. It is only a small minority of people, like Nessa here, who seem to honestly believe that those stories are "true." Creationism ought to be going the way of Geocentrism, but some people refuse to wise up.

quote:

I pretty much believed all of it during a lot of time, but lately being losing most of the faith on it. Nowadays i neither deny the existence of god, neither accept it, these are just possibilities, the concept of 'beleif' itself bring closed-mindness (does this word exist, heh).

That makes you an agnostic.

quote:

And I think that if Jesus did really exist and was the son of god, his major message was to give a set of morals and rules for us not to kill each other and **** up our lives, not to force everyone to believe dogmatically in a set of myths and an old book.

Good point. Now let's see you convince the fundies of that.

___________________
My party schedule:
2009-02-21 - DJ Attention @ I'm So Popular
2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
2012-11-32 - DJ Insufferable ɸ Or At Least the Stalkers I Complain About
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World Fasting Championships current standings:

The Lord Jesus Christ of Nazereth - 40 days

The current champion, David Blaine - 44 days

Nuff said!

(And David Blane was in a box in full view of the public...who has Jesus got to back up his claims?! For all we know, he could have shacked up in some sleezy motel stuffing his face on Mars bars for a month!)

Jesus: "Ay up lads, just got back from t'desert"
Desciples: "How'd it go?"
Jesus: "Bit a sand up me crack but only to be expected"
Desciples: "No we mean the fasting"
Jesus: "Oh yea, didn't eat a thing"
Desciples: "Really?"
Jesus: "Yea, ask Devil if ya dont believe me"
Desciples: "Is that a Mars Bar wrapper in your pocket?"
Jesus: "Look, are you the sun of God? No, well shut yer f*ckin hole then"
Desciples: "Come on lads, lets get out of here, heard there's this fella David Blaine gonna do it in a glass box to prove he aint cheatin"

quote:

Originally posted by paranoik0 Not trying to defend Nellie, but on the issue of the bible talking about 'gods'.. Tito i think you're misunderstanding it. I think the context in which most of the time they're refered to is as the 'fictional gods' the other people, such as the egiptians believe.

I agree that is true in most cases. However, god says a few times that he will exercise judgement upon other gods, not their followers. That is an indirect proof of their existance, as they must exist in order for god to exercise his judgement upon them.

quote:

As for that one in genesis saying 'us', i don't have a real explanation, but as you said yourself in other context it has been translated so many times and so many versions are out there that it could easily be a translation error.

Personally I believe those passages are remnants of old polytheist myths. As the religion grew towards monotheism, the central god grew more and more powerful, and other gods were reduced to the status of angels. The whole story about Lucifer's rebellion is meaningless if the god was allmighty and all powerful. It only makes sense in the context of a god with divine yet limited powers, something along the lines of greek or scandinavian myths. Especially since the god is walking around the garden in a human form. Too bad those myths are now hard to find as they were absorbed in the bible. Maybe some jews on this forum might be willing to supply me with more of them, I'd certainly appreciate it.

quote:

Also, for that 'day being created on a day', it's more than likely day in two different senses. 'Day and night' as in the distinction between light and dark, and 'day' as a period of 24 hours. Like, an interpertration of it: 'god created the day and night' = 'god created the sun to illuminate earth', got it?

Yes, except that the sun was created on the 4th day

quote:

On an unrelated note, let me point my religious views. I was grown as a catholic, and still go to church. Over here, the typical view of bible is that it is very metaphorical and in no way everything must be taken literally. I pretty much believed all of it during a lot of time, but lately being losing most of the faith on it. Nowadays i neither deny the existence of god, neither accept it, these are just possibilities, the concept of 'beleif' itself bring closed-mindness (does this word exist, heh). And I think that if Jesus did really exist and was the son of god, his major message was to give a set of morals and rules for us not to kill each other and **** up our lives, not to force everyone to believe dogmatically in a set of myths and an old book.

Heh, if all the christians would think this way I would have no problem with them. RC church has lately worked very hard on keeping up the pace with social and scientific changes, and I must say that their views have progressed greatly from the dogmatism of the middle ages. Protestants have, sadly, generally not kept up with those changes and they degraded themselves through time from a progressive and liberal option to a reactionary force of christianity.

quote:

Originally posted by WhoaNellie1487 It's my choice to improve or not,It's not yours. I'm wrong? Who is saying there is a woman named Lilith in the Bible,and some woman gave birth to demons? Eh. I'm not incorrect.

God are you demented or something? IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE BECAUSE THE BIBLICAL VERSION OF THE STORY OF CREATION WAS SHORTENED AND THE PART ABOUT LILITH WAS THROWN OUT! IT IS HOWEVER PRESENT IN THE EARLY JEWISH MYTH FROM WHICH THE STORY OF CREATION WAS INCORPORATED INTO THE BIBLE! Clear now?

___________________
1+1=10

Last edited by DrUg_Tit0 on Feb-08-2004 at 00:30

There comes a time when you meet people who are neither logical nor rational in their beliefs or arguments. Sometimes you just have to let it go ...

___________________
Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 God are you demented or something? IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE BECAUSE THE BIBLICAL VERSION OF THE STORY OF CREATION WAS SHORTENED AND THE PART ABOUT LILITH WAS THROWN OUT! IT IS HOWEVER PRESENT IN THE EARLY JEWISH MYTH FROM WHICH THE STORY OF CREATION WAS INCORPORATED INTO THE BIBLE! Clear now?

Heh, here's a pretty good summary of the Lilith myth:

http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/lillith.html

Wonder why it got taken out of the bible... probably 'cause of those damn feminists.

Jewish mythology, and a huge part of the Jewish religion outside the bible (like the Kabbalah) has TONS of stuff on demons and witchcraft and so on. A lot of people (including Jews) don't realize it, but only a small fraction of the religion is actually represented in the bible, the rest is found in other mystical and mythological sources. The mythology actually explains a lot of the strange parts of the bible that don't seem to make much sense (although sadly, it doesn't resolve any of the obvious contradictions).

Edit: I just noticed that the story also contains the myth of the "first Eve", the fabled failure which I'd forgotten about up 'til now. The mythology is actually pretty interesting if you don't rely on the bible for it...

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2009-06-18 - DJ Annoying @ People Need To Know Where I'll Be
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Last edited by DigiNut on Feb-08-2004 at 03:09

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Jewish mythology, and a huge part of the Jewish religion outside the bible (like the Kabbalah) has TONS of stuff on demons and witchcraft and so on. A lot of people (including Jews) don't realize it, but only a small fraction of the religion is actually represented in the bible, the rest is found in other mystical and mythological sources. The mythology actually explains a lot of the strange parts of the bible that don't seem to make much sense (although sadly, it doesn't resolve any of the obvious contradictions).

I like to read all mythological stories, so I agree that jewish mythology is interesting to read too. Unfortunately it's pretty hard to find. Got some more good sources maybe?

quote:

Edit: I just noticed that the story also contains the myth of the "first Eve", the fabled failure which I'd forgotten about up 'til now. The mythology is actually pretty interesting if you don't rely on the bible for it...

Hehe, yes, god seems to fail quite often in his early days. Lack of excperience I would say.

___________________
1+1=10

quote:

God are you demented or something? IT IS NOT IN THE BIBLE BECAUSE THE BIBLICAL VERSION OF THE STORY OF CREATION WAS SHORTENED AND THE PART ABOUT LILITH WAS THROWN OUT! IT IS HOWEVER PRESENT IN THE EARLY JEWISH MYTH FROM WHICH THE STORY OF CREATION WAS INCORPORATED INTO THE BIBLE! Clear now?

It never existed, That's the point..and no,I'm not demented.

___________________
~Nessa