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Originally posted by Arbiter Yes, I can see how "confident" you are in your beliefs which you conveniently don't "feel the need" to answer for. That's not inconsistent at all with the fact that you did feel the need to make the following claim: Then, when you couldn't back up any of your pointless MCA claptrap with anything stronger than an appeal to anonymous authority, you suddenly "don't feel the need" to justify your beliefs anymore. I'm sure everyone appreciates your contribution of baseless claims and subsequent refusals to justify or support your position to this thread. I know I do: you are a case study for the intellectual laziness invariably associated with religious faith.

First and foremost, the biggest reasons you would not understand because they are intangible, which being that you are closed-minded, you would not understand.

Secondly. Do you believe in the big bang? If so, it is interesting how a bunch of gases (disorder) formed solids (order). Considering that one of the laws of thermodynamics states that everything is constantly moving towards disorder. And if energy cannot be created or destroyed. Where did it come from? You tell me where the energy came from that started it all, without saying, it was just here. If it was here, something you don't understand created it or you just don't understand making your beliefs a faith too. For some reason I imagine you haven't a clue with all of your empirical evidence.

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Old Norsk Sessions every 4th Monday from 4-6pm EST on Digitally Imported Radio (Progressive Station), and 7pm CET on Trance.fm every 1st Saturday

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Originally posted by torontotrance UWM, you and others can't be like me, a virgin but I can get laid and be like you.

Whoa there, Tiger, what do I have to do with that post??

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Originally posted by torontotrance I don't get why people have to attack me for my stand, I'm not hurting anyone with this decision.

Maybe it's the same thing for people that have chosen not to wait. We don't understand the constant comments made to us either. It doesn't have any direct impact on your life just like your decision has no effect on ours. Just avoid the topic like the plague. Of course there is nothing wrong with being proud of abstaining, but arguing online with people that don't share your beliefs will accomplish nothing. Be happy with who you are and just let the rest go. That's what I do.

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Originally posted by Nite-Mer they are intangible, which being that you are closed-minded, you would not understand.

since we wouldn't understand.. please explain how you know there is something out there. since this "something" is intangible, as you say, and has never been defined, isn't it absurd to believe in its existence?

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Originally texted by Jakhira Out with the dog at the moment. Chicks love him, and I love chicks... The world is in harmony

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Originally posted by TOR since we wouldn't understand.. please explain how you know there is something out there. since this "something" is intangible, as you say, and has never been defined, isn't it absurd to believe in its existence?

its not about knowing but more about believeing..

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Originally posted by Nite-Mer First and foremost, the biggest reasons you would not understand because they are intangible, which being that you are closed-minded, you would not understand.

The open mind is often drafty. If your reasons are "intangible" and therefore insufficient to persuade a skeptical mind, then I'm curious as to why they so easily convince you. Do you apply the same standard of evidence to every thing that anyone might try to persuade you of? If so, it seems to me that you'd be rather easily duped.

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Secondly. Do you believe in the big bang? If so, it is interesting how a bunch of gases (disorder) formed solids (order). Considering that one of the laws of thermodynamics states that everything is constantly moving towards disorder. And if energy cannot be created or destroyed. Where did it come from? You tell me where the energy came from that started it all, without saying, it was just here. If it was here, something you don't understand created it or you just don't understand making your beliefs a faith too. For some reason I imagine you haven't a clue with all of your empirical evidence.

Yes, I believe in the big bang to the extent that I believe it is the best supported hypothesis for the creation of the universe as it exists. The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy in a closed system will always increase over time where entropy is defined as the the ratio of the heat energy of a system to the highest temperature object within the system (in practical applications, this is the amount of "useless" energy in a system.) If the Universe is a closed system - which is the subject of significant debate - then the entropy of that system must increase over time. It has. Although some parts of the system have become more ordered, the overall entropy of the system has increased as matter and energy have spread outwards.

If energy cannot be created or destroyed, then it can't be created or destroyed by God, either. So, either:

1. Energy can be created and/or destroyed.
or
2. Energy has been constant for all time.

The assumption that everything which exists has been created has no scientific basis.

But you're right about one thing: even my beliefs require something which could be called "faith." I cannot be absolutely logically certain of the accuracy of my perception, or of the data or observations of other human beings (e.g. scientists). Furthermore, there are aspects of reality which I can't fully understand and can only postulate hypotheses to explain.

There is, however, a significant difference between beliefs or faith which are derived from compelling and reliable indicators of truth and beliefs or faith which are derived from unreliable sources such as 2000-year-old books or intangible "feelings." You're welcome to believe whatever you want for whatever reason you want. But if you're genuinely interested in the truth behind life and the universe, I can't see how you could be satisfied with the origins of your beliefs.

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Originally posted by tranceaholic its not about knowing but more about believeing..

ok, but that does not exclude the fact that one needs strong indications in order to acknowledge the existence of a supernatural entity. and i'm very curious which indications Nite-Mer is basing his beliefs on.

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Originally texted by Jakhira Out with the dog at the moment. Chicks love him, and I love chicks... The world is in harmony

sex before marriage is OK with me. .

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Originally posted by Arbiter The open mind is often drafty. If your reasons are "intangible" and therefore insufficient to persuade a skeptical mind, then I'm curious as to why they so easily convince you. Do you apply the same standard of evidence to every thing that anyone might try to persuade you of? If so, it seems to me that you'd be rather easily duped. Yes, I believe in the big bang to the extent that I believe it is the best supported hypothesis for the creation of the universe as it exists. The second law of thermodynamics states that the entropy in a closed system will always increase over time where entropy is defined as the the ratio of the heat energy of a system to the highest temperature object within the system (in practical applications, this is the amount of "useless" energy in a system.) If the Universe is a closed system - which is the subject of significant debate - then the entropy of that system must increase over time. It has. Although some parts of the system have become more ordered, the overall entropy of the system has increased as matter and energy have spread outwards. If energy cannot be created or destroyed, then it can't be created or destroyed by God, either. So, either: 1. Energy can be created and/or destroyed. or 2. Energy has been constant for all time. The assumption that everything which exists has been created has no scientific basis. But you're right about one thing: even my beliefs require something which could be called "faith." I cannot be absolutely logically certain of the accuracy of my perception, or of the data or observations of other human beings (e.g. scientists). Furthermore, there are aspects of reality which I can't fully understand and can only postulate hypotheses to explain. There is, however, a significant difference between beliefs or faith which are derived from compelling and reliable indicators of truth and beliefs or faith which are derived from unreliable sources such as 2000-year-old books or intangible "feelings." You're welcome to believe whatever you want for whatever reason you want. But if you're genuinely interested in the truth behind life and the universe, I can't see how you could be satisfied with the origins of your beliefs.

All I will say is that I understand your beliefs and respect them. However, there are still debates between Christians and Evolutionists and they continue, because there aren't really winners in the debates. It is impossible for anyone to know for sure one way or the other. You may have scientific evidence that you believe, and I may believe that God is out there. My intangible beliefs are based on abrupt changes in my life, based on my levels of commitment to God. If you aren't a Christian you can't understand that feeling and the power that comes over you. I am not asking you to change your mind. You make your own choices. But even though you can't see the wind, you can feel it. I am certain based on the things I've felt. I guarantee a lot of you will think that's stupid. I don't really care. I don't judge anyone for their beliefs and I'm not trying to judge anyone for having different beliefs. I'll leave that to others. But there are a lot of predictions in the bible that have come true, everyone acknowledges Jesus's existence and death, so the predictions about him can't be dispelled by saying it's too long ago and he might not have existed. To me there is plenty of compelling evidence, but I don't blame you for feeling differently. Another interesting thing is that Mt. Helens erupted leaving behind many thousands of sedimentary layers. If a forty day forty night flood happened proportionally larger amounts of layers could be formed in places. Like the Grand Canyon per se. If some of the stories are true maybe they do explain some of the things we see, rather than just assuming it takes one year for each layer, etc. etc. Maybe the amount of knowledge we have accumulated in the small amount of time on this earth has lead us to accept theories as truths, and maybe our whole basis for some of them aren't true. In my mind, science has a lot of gaps as well.

I studied Physical Anthropology in College and found it funny that one of the explanations for a lack in evidence of intermediary species for evolution was that some times are good for fossilization and some are not so good. What a weak explanation for a lack of data. Or pictures of a whole skeletal system of several bones (50-100) with only three that were actually found. I take that as a leap of faith.

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Old Norsk Sessions every 4th Monday from 4-6pm EST on Digitally Imported Radio (Progressive Station), and 7pm CET on Trance.fm every 1st Saturday

wow- what a magnificent thread, Just when it was on the border-line of losing my interest- arbiter, nite-mer an all brought it back to life. Thanks.


OK!! now that I am all the smarter for it- can we puleeezzee have some comic relief and hear more D-I-R-T-Y........ stuff.













purdy please...

There are still debates between dogs and cats and they will continue, because there aren't really winners in the debates. It is impossible for anyone to know for sure one way or the other. You may have science fiction novels that you believe, and I may believe that aliens are out there. My intangible beliefs are based on abrupt changes in my life, based on my levels of commitment to aliens. If you aren't an alien then you can't understand that feeling and the power that comes over you. I am not asking you to change your simple human mind. You make your own human choices. But even though you can't see the 'force', you can feel it. I am certain based on the things I've felt. I guarantee a lot of you will think that's the anal prob. I don't really care. I don't judge anyone for their abductions and I'm not trying to judge anyone for having different kinds of abductions. I'll leave that to other alien species. But there are a lot of predictions in star wars that have come true, everyone acknowledges wookies are out there, so the predictions about them can't be dispelled by saying it's too long ago in a galaxy far far away and they might not have existed. To me there is plenty of compelling evidence, but I don't blame you for feeling differently. Another interesting thing is that the area 51 aliens erupted leaving behind many thousands of sedimentary layers of alien goo. If a overnight abduction happened proportionally larger amounts of layers could be formed in places. Like the planet tatooine per se. If some of the stories are true maybe they do explain some of the things we see, rather than just assuming it takes one year for each layer, etc. etc. Maybe the amount of knowledge we have accumulated in the small amount of time on this alien breed has lead us to accept theories as truths, and maybe our whole basis for some of them aren't true. In my mind, has a lot of gaps as well.

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