quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf There's no such thing as a moderate Muslim. Their immediate goal is to conquer Europe, and then to destroy the West.

You've completely invalidated you're entire argument with such blatant ignorance.

Do you have Muslim friends? Are THEY trying to conquer the world? Get out of your house, meet people who aren't white evangelical bible thumpers with chastity belts waiting till they're dead to have sex.

___________________

Most recent tracks:
1) Ilan Bluestone - Spheres (State of Matter Eleventh Hour Mix)
2) MK-S - Illuminate (State of Matter Revival Mix)
3) Scarab - Vagabond (State of Matter Revival Mix)
4) Ferry Corsten & The Thrillseekers - Sublime (State of Matter Revival Mix)
5) State of Matter - Saving Icarus (Original Mix)

https://soundcloud.com/stateofmattermusic

quote:

Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: hmm, wonder why the christian nations of west are so prosperous, and those of the muslim nations are so poor?

Probably because "christian" nations made a clear cut between religion and state affairs, and are therefore unhindered by clerical reactionism.

___________________
1+1=10

More evidence...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/s...1348045,00.html

'The West needs to understand it is inevitable: Islam is coming back'

Faisal al Yafai talks to Britain's most radical Islamic group, banned across the Middle East, about faith, defiance and the future
Faisal al Yafai
Thursday November 11, 2004

The Guardian
The east London hall echoes to the sound of the speaker's voice: "They want us to redefine Islam to fit the agenda of the west," he intones, and the audience murmurs. "Islam is going to be political, no matter how hard they try. Islam itself is political. Allah has not remained silent when it comes to political matters."

The speaker is a member of Hizb ut Tahrir, the most controversial Islamic group in Britain today. Critics have called for the group to be banned, as it is in Germany, while supporters hail it as the saviour of the Muslim community. Hizb - the name means Party of Liberation in Arabic - is banned throughout the Middle East, and three British men are in jail in Egypt accused of propagating its views. In Uzbekistan, thousands of Hizb members are in jail, and a Russian thinktank has compared the group to al-Qaida.

Eighteen months ago, the group briefly appeared in the public eye when the wife of Omar Sharif, the Briton who launched a failed suicide-bomb attack in Tel Aviv, was found to have leaflets from the group in her home. Hizb ut Tahrir also has a presence on university campuses, where it has been accused of anti-semitism.

Until recently, the leadership of Hizb was secretive and cautious, reluctant to release details of the scale of its membership, its leadership structure or its funding. One ex-member who spent years with the group says there are probably only 500 members across the country, but the group may have 10 times that number as committed supporters. Hizb's annual conference in Birmingham last year attracted about 8,000, by the far the most for a Muslim organisation.

In a sign that the group is changing direction, it has given the Guardian unprecedented access to its leadership. The newspaper has spoken to current and former Hizb members and supporters in London, Derby, Leicester, Birmingham, Nottingham and Manchester in an attempt to piece together the group's motivation and ideology.

The leader of the group, a 28-year-old IT consultant called Jalaluddin Patel, is the first leader in its 18-year history in the UK to speak to the national press. He says Hizb has nothing to hide but will not release membership figures: "It's a genuine security issue. We're unsure about the manner in which western society would treat a group like ours."

Patel insists that Hizb is no threat to the west, but part of it. But he adds that the west "needs to understand what is really an inevitable matter, and that is that Islam is coming back, the Islamic caliphate is going to be implemented in the world very soon ... The Muslim people need to realise that the way in which they will restore a form of dignity and bring civilisation back to the Islamic world is to establish a modern caliphate."

The call to re-establish the caliphate, the single Islamic state that existed for a millennium and a half, until the end of the Ottoman empire in 1924, forms the thrust of the group's message. But its call for Muslims to be strong is not just political; it is also religious: "Secularism has failed the world" declares a Hizb poster.

Bringing the caliphate back will not be easy: at one debate on the future of Iraq, held just off Brick Lane, an American journalist warned the audience that America, China and India would never tolerate an Islamic state "strung like a belt across the world. There would have to be a response."

Hizb's message is too radical to seem immediately threatening. But it is the scale of its ambition that is striking. Hizb appears to be focusing its efforts in Britain on removing Pakistan's President Musharraf, a key ally in the US war on terror. Last month the group led a march of thousands to the Pakistani high commission in London, calling for regime change and declaring "Pakistan Army: why are you silent?"

In Pakistan the security services say they are keeping close watch on Hizb, mindful of the group's links with an educated middle class and fearful of possible links with other, more radical groups.

Brainwash

Despite recent moves by the group to open itself up - in March this year, for the first time, Hizb announced the nine people on its executive committee - it remains difficult to join it. Before membership, supporters must be invited to join a study group. Patel dismisses the idea that these study groups brainwash supporters: "If you call brainwashing the imparting of ideas and discourse based on those ideas, then I'm afraid that's what it must be. But fortunately we're not in the business of brainwashing."

At 28, Patel is relatively young to be leading a national group, though he has been involved with Hizb since he was 16. He came to Hizb searching for answers, studied with the group, and became chair of the executive committee at 26. Although reluctant to talk about his own background, it is clear his upbringing was comfortable and not particularly political - he says his father knows he is involved with Hizb but doesn't know he leads it. "He will now."

Hizb often holds public debates with figures from politics or the media. The meetings are usually packed. Across the country the group publishes books and magazines and holds discussion groups trying to galvanise the Muslim community on a variety of issues. But the solution is always the re-establishment of the caliphate.

Hizb is reluctant to say where its gets the money for these activities. Patel says it all comes entirely from donations from members and supporters, gathered as and when needed. No one in the party receives a salary.

Hizb ut Tahrir was formed in Jerusalem in 1953 by a Palestinian judge. Since then, it has expanded across the Middle East and throughout the world, from Indonesia to America. But it is in Britain that the group probably has its strongest presence. Its conferences have attracted thousands of British Muslims.

In Tower Hamlets, east London, Hizb distributed a leaflet opposing the Brick Lane festival last month, arguing that the promotion of "the culture of drinking alcohol, dancing and free-mixing" was not the image the area's Muslim community ought to be projecting.

Meetings - or "circles" - follow the same format, with a speaker from the group expanding on a subject for around 40 minutes. The audience, almost always students and professionals in their 20s and 30s, listen and then pepper the speaker with questions. Some meetings are men- or women-only. At those that are mixed, the women, seated separately from the men, ask the most forceful and detailed questions, usually from beneath a sea of headscarves.

Although one of the main aims of the group is to forge a strong religious identity for Muslims in Britain, it also believes the wider Muslim world has been ill-served by its rulers. It has openly called for coups against Arab governments to establish more representative leadership. Governments such as Egypt which feel that Hizb is a threat have banned it and arrested its members.

The group came to Britain in 1986, founded by a Syrian called Omar Bakri Muhammed. Bakri remained leader for 10 years until he left to form another, more radical, Islamic group, al-Muhajiroun.

In the mid-1990s, Hizb was a fixture on university campuses, organising societies and debates. Its rhetoric was fierce and angry. Then Hizb went quiet, and now its influence on campus is limited to some Islamic societies or smaller groups. Some maintain it is still a threat: in March this year a motion proposed by the Union of Jewish Students to the National Union of Students conference banned Hizb from campuses because of alleged anti-semitism.

Last year the German government banned the group for the same reasons and the country's interior minister, Otto Schilly, proposed Britain should follow suit, saying: "It won't do if the same thing is then not banned in a neighbouring country. We have to act in harmony."

Patel calls such accusations misguided. But he does not deny being anti-Israel: "Being anti-Israel is probably a sentiment held by one billion Muslims around the world. It's not unique to the party. A lot of western commentators could be classified as anti-Israel."

On some campuses, the group has renamed itself, using such names as the Ideological Society. Its uncompromising tone, in contrast to the mute moderation of some imams, is a powerful attraction. In cities where it has a strong presence, such as Birmingham and Leicester, some mosques have made it clear that Hizb is unwelcome. "We don't like their ideas at all," said the imam of one of Birmingham's biggest mosques. "They're not Islamic ideas, they're very nationalistic, racist ideas that they've got from somewhere else."

Angry

Hizb says such criticism is an attempt to depoliticise Islam and warns against seeing political awareness always in the context of angry youth. Hizb offers a worldview that can be easily grasped, a straightforward solution to many of the problems of society. The scope of Hizb - Patel says "every mosque in this country" has members or supporters - has led to worries about its influence. But it is not on the Home Office's list of proscribed organisations, and the Metropolitan police's anti-terrorism branch says it has no evidence of illegal activity.

Critics are most concerned about Hizb in Central Asia, where its brand of political Islam is motivating impoverished Uzbeks against the government of Uzbekistan. In testimony before the US Congress earlier this year, a director of the Nixon Centre, a rightwing thinktank, warned: "Like other Islamist movements, HT's goal is to overthrow secular regimes around the world. Unlike many others, however, HT hopes to achieve this goal peacefully ... I think HT, which is not considered a terrorist organisation, is an even more dangerous long-term threat, as it is the elementary school for the ideological training of many other groups."

This is the "conveyor belt for terrorism" argument: the implication is that such an organisation might inspire others. Patel is dismissive: "I think it's a very disingenuous view. The Founding Fathers of America would probably have been called a conveyor belt for terrorists because they produced the intellectual ideas which led to the American people rising up against colonial rule."

If there is a threat it comes in ideas, because the message of Hizb - of a strong, international Islamic state; of a Middle East free of the western powers; of Islam as a solution to the problems of society - may be far more dangerous to the west.

Patel accepts that the very notion of a caliphate implies the destruction of institutions and government systems, but believes there is no alternative - although he stresses the transition will not be violent. And although Hizb has been making its argument for over half a century without visible results, Patel does not see that as a criticism of the concept. "We believe the caliphate could be established tomorrow. We believe all the ingredients are there," he says. And he has a warning for the Muslim rulers of the world: "One of the greatest obstacles that exists is the brutality of the state and the fear that is instilled in the masses. What we say is that it is a matter of time before the masses observe that brutality and say enough is enough."

___________________
Nathan Fake - Outhouse (Valentino Kanzyani Remix) || ID PLZ! PVD ID!!!
Disco and classical had sex while watching a sci-fi movie. Their child: trance.

quote:

Originally posted by ::TranceVanDyk:: According to the bible, jesus came to save the world, not condemn it. according to the koran, mohammed's mission was to condemn the world, and subdue it. there will always be those who use the faith as an excuse for their own evil actions, but islam's doctrine seems to provide a basis for an excuse for terrorist actions against "non-believers". a observation ive made is that islam is not only a religion, but its an entire culture. spanning religion, government, personal life, family life, etc. its laws are based in 7th century arabia. they should no longer apply as they are hugely obsolete, but islam holds these laws and customs of 7th century arabia in place. i believe this is the reason the middle east is so far behind the west, they are still living in the 7th century law.

LOL, oh man, germans always crack me up....i cant wait to visit berlin!

___________________
Buying trance is a lot like buying a car. Don`t buy American.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Probably because "christian" nations made a clear cut between religion and state affairs, and are therefore unhindered by clerical reactionism.

That is very true. Islamic nations limit freedoms and economic development due to the will of Allah. A Westernized woman would find it oppressive to live in an Islamic nation.

Economically if oil was not in the Middle East we would not care about them. Originally oil drilling began when these nations were under French and British mandate after World War I when they carved the former Ottoman Empire between themselves. Oil came out of the ground due to Western technology and the irony is that the West was the force who put them in this position today.

quote:

Originally posted by ShadoWolf More evidence... http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/s...1348045,00.html

Really? Let's see, shall we?

quote:

Faisal al Yafai talks to Britain's most radical Islamic group, banned across the Middle East, about faith, defiance and the future.

So, we're talking about a group that's been banned even in the Middle East. It's not an important place though, is it?

quote:

The east London hall echoes to the sound of the speaker's voice: "They want us to redefine Islam to fit the agenda of the west," he intones, and the audience murmurs. "Islam is going to be political, no matter how hard they try. Islam itself is political. Allah has not remained silent when it comes to political matters."

No signs of world domination so far... or anything uncommon, for that matter.

quote:

The speaker is a member of Hizb ut Tahrir, the most controversial Islamic group in Britain today. Critics have called for the group to be banned, as it is in Germany, while supporters hail it as the saviour of the Muslim community. Hizb - the name means Party of Liberation in Arabic - is banned throughout the Middle East, and three British men are in jail in Egypt accused of propagating its views. In Uzbekistan, thousands of Hizb members are in jail, and a Russian thinktank has compared the group to al-Qaida.

The countries in the Middle East are simply fighting against the spread of Muslim communities in Muslim countries, no other reason involved. Makes sense.

quote:

Eighteen months ago, the group briefly appeared in the public eye when the wife of Omar Sharif, the Briton who launched a failed suicide-bomb attack in Tel Aviv, was found to have leaflets from the group in her home. Hizb ut Tahrir also has a presence on university campuses, where it has been accused of anti-semitism.

Never Christian European countries have been accused of anti-semitism.

quote:

Until recently, the leadership of Hizb was secretive and cautious, reluctant to release details of the scale of its membership, its leadership structure or its funding. One ex-member who spent years with the group says there are probably only 500 members across the country, but the group may have 10 times that number as committed supporters. Hizb's annual conference in Birmingham last year attracted about 8,000, by the far the most for a Muslim organisation.

Some numbers....

quote:

In a sign that the group is changing direction, it has given the Guardian unprecedented access to its leadership. The newspaper has spoken to current and former Hizb members and supporters in London, Derby, Leicester, Birmingham, Nottingham and Manchester in an attempt to piece together the group's motivation and ideology.

No evidence so far...

quote:

The leader of the group, a 28-year-old IT consultant called Jalaluddin Patel, is the first leader in its 18-year history in the UK to speak to the national press. He says Hizb has nothing to hide but will not release membership figures: "It's a genuine security issue. We're unsure about the manner in which western society would treat a group like ours."

...

quote:

Patel insists that Hizb is no threat to the west, but part of it. But he adds that the west "needs to understand what is really an inevitable matter, and that is that Islam is coming back, the Islamic caliphate is going to be implemented in the world very soon ... The Muslim people need to realise that the way in which they will restore a form of dignity and bring civilisation back to the Islamic world is to establish a modern caliphate."

So they want to implement an Islamic caliphate in the world. From what he said, you can understand he wants the Islamic world to have its caliphate. Islam has 1.3 billion adherents and, because 8 thousand people seem to agree that having a caliphate in the Islamic world is a good idea, that's a sign they all want to take over the world (or Europe, for that matter).

quote:

The call to re-establish the caliphate, the single Islamic state that existed for a millennium and a half, until the end of the Ottoman empire in 1924, forms the thrust of the group's message. But its call for Muslims to be strong is not just political; it is also religious: "Secularism has failed the world" declares a Hizb poster.

Nothing to be discussed. It's their opinion.

quote:

Bringing the caliphate back will not be easy: at one debate on the future of Iraq, held just off Brick Lane, an American journalist warned the audience that America, China and India would never tolerate an Islamic state "strung like a belt across the world. There would have to be a response."

So they wanted Iraq to be the the caliphate... they'll hardly manage to do it.

quote:

Hizb's message is too radical to seem immediately threatening. But it is the scale of its ambition that is striking. Hizb appears to be focusing its efforts in Britain on removing Pakistan's President Musharraf, a key ally in the US war on terror. Last month the group led a march of thousands to the Pakistani high commission in London, calling for regime change and declaring "Pakistan Army: why are you silent?" In Pakistan the security services say they are keeping close watch on Hizb, mindful of the group's links with an educated middle class and fearful of possible links with other, more radical groups.

So there are radical groups, which is something exclusive to Islam in your opinion, I suppose. Oh, true, all muslims are radical, isn't it?

quote:

Despite recent moves by the group to open itself up - in March this year, for the first time, Hizb announced the nine people on its executive committee - it remains difficult to join it. Before membership, supporters must be invited to join a study group. Patel dismisses the idea that these study groups brainwash supporters: "If you call brainwashing the imparting of ideas and discourse based on those ideas, then I'm afraid that's what it must be. But fortunately we're not in the business of brainwashing."

Hey, I had to study religion at school too. I wonder if all that Jesus talk was an Islamic plot to take over my city.

quote:

At 28, Patel is relatively young to be leading a national group, though he has been involved with Hizb since he was 16. He came to Hizb searching for answers, studied with the group, and became chair of the executive committee at 26. Although reluctant to talk about his own background, it is clear his upbringing was comfortable and not particularly political - he says his father knows he is involved with Hizb but doesn't know he leads it. "He will now."

...

quote:

Hizb often holds public debates with figures from politics or the media. The meetings are usually packed. Across the country the group publishes books and magazines and holds discussion groups trying to galvanise the Muslim community on a variety of issues. But the solution is always the re-establishment of the caliphate.

Oh my God, they really want a religious state. How uncommon is that?

quote:

Hizb is reluctant to say where its gets the money for these activities. Patel says it all comes entirely from donations from members and supporters, gathered as and when needed. No one in the party receives a salary.

It's the same in political parties here...

quote:

Hizb ut Tahrir was formed in Jerusalem in 1953 by a Palestinian judge. Since then, it has expanded across the Middle East and throughout the world, from Indonesia to America. But it is in Britain that the group probably has its strongest presence. Its conferences have attracted thousands of British Muslims.

...

quote:

In Tower Hamlets, east London, Hizb distributed a leaflet opposing the Brick Lane festival last month, arguing that the promotion of "the culture of drinking alcohol, dancing and free-mixing" was not the image the area's Muslim community ought to be projecting.

I'm against free-mixing as well... if you're going to play, stick to a bloody single genre!

quote:

Meetings - or "circles" - follow the same format, with a speaker from the group expanding on a subject for around 40 minutes. The audience, almost always students and professionals in their 20s and 30s, listen and then pepper the speaker with questions. Some meetings are men- or women-only. At those that are mixed, the women, seated separately from the men, ask the most forceful and detailed questions, usually from beneath a sea of headscarves.

So, they debate. Yes, that must be some plot to take over some place.

quote:

Although one of the main aims of the group is to forge a strong religious identity for Muslims in Britain, it also believes the wider Muslim world has been ill-served by its rulers. It has openly called for coups against Arab governments to establish more representative leadership. Governments such as Egypt which feel that Hizb is a threat have banned it and arrested its members.

So their ideas are either about the Muslim community or the Muslim world. So far, nothing wrong.

quote:

The group came to Britain in 1986, founded by a Syrian called Omar Bakri Muhammed. Bakri remained leader for 10 years until he left to form another, more radical, Islamic group, al-Muhajiroun.

He really couldn't make up his mind, could he?

quote:

In the mid-1990s, Hizb was a fixture on university campuses, organising societies and debates. Its rhetoric was fierce and angry. Then Hizb went quiet, and now its influence on campus is limited to some Islamic societies or smaller groups. Some maintain it is still a threat: in March this year a motion proposed by the Union of Jewish Students to the National Union of Students conference banned Hizb from campuses because of alleged anti-semitism.

Jews and Arabs talking about one another, who would've seen that coming?

quote:

Last year the German government banned the group for the same reasons and the country's interior minister, Otto Schilly, proposed Britain should follow suit, saying: "It won't do if the same thing is then not banned in a neighbouring country. We have to act in harmony."

...

quote:

Patel calls such accusations misguided. But he does not deny being anti-Israel: "Being anti-Israel is probably a sentiment held by one billion Muslims around the world. It's not unique to the party. A lot of western commentators could be classified as anti-Israel."

...

quote:

On some campuses, the group has renamed itself, using such names as the Ideological Society. Its uncompromising tone, in contrast to the mute moderation of some imams, is a powerful attraction. In cities where it has a strong presence, such as Birmingham and Leicester, some mosques have made it clear that Hizb is unwelcome. "We don't like their ideas at all," said the imam of one of Birmingham's biggest mosques. "They're not Islamic ideas, they're very nationalistic, racist ideas that they've got from somewhere else."

I guess this means we can't link them to Islamism anymore, so I won't.

quote:

Hizb says such criticism is an attempt to depoliticise Islam and warns against seeing political awareness always in the context of angry youth. Hizb offers a worldview that can be easily grasped, a straightforward solution to many of the problems of society. The scope of Hizb - Patel says "every mosque in this country" has members or supporters - has led to worries about its influence. But it is not on the Home Office's list of proscribed organisations, and the Metropolitan police's anti-terrorism branch says it has no evidence of illegal activity.

If the British government says they're not terrorists, who am I to say otherwise?

quote:

Critics are most concerned about Hizb in Central Asia, where its brand of political Islam is motivating impoverished Uzbeks against the government of Uzbekistan. In testimony before the US Congress earlier this year, a director of the Nixon Centre, a rightwing thinktank, warned: "Like other Islamist movements, HT's goal is to overthrow secular regimes around the world. Unlike many others, however, HT hopes to achieve this goal peacefully ... I think HT, which is not considered a terrorist organisation, is an even more dangerous long-term threat, as it is the elementary school for the ideological training of many other groups."

Is it a radical talking about other radicals?

quote:

This is the "conveyor belt for terrorism" argument: the implication is that such an organisation might inspire others. Patel is dismissive: "I think it's a very disingenuous view. The Founding Fathers of America would probably have been called a conveyor belt for terrorists because they produced the intellectual ideas which led to the American people rising up against colonial rule."

...

quote:

If there is a threat it comes in ideas, because the message of Hizb - of a strong, international Islamic state; of a Middle East free of the western powers; of Islam as a solution to the problems of society - may be far more dangerous to the west.

I've got nothing against a "Middle East free of Western Powers". It's their land, if they want to be isolated, let them be. Isn't there a strong, international Christian state as well?

quote:

Patel accepts that the very notion of a caliphate implies the destruction of institutions and government systems, but believes there is no alternative - although he stresses the transition will not be violent. And although Hizb has been making its argument for over half a century without visible results, Patel does not see that as a criticism of the concept. "We believe the caliphate could be established tomorrow. We believe all the ingredients are there," he says. And he has a warning for the Muslim rulers of the world: "One of the greatest obstacles that exists is the brutality of the state and the fear that is instilled in the masses. What we say is that it is a matter of time before the masses observe that brutality and say enough is enough."

So they say they don't want violence. Yes, that's dangerous.
-------------
Instead of posting about radical minorities, you still haven't replied to my post. Why?

___________________
Indiana Clones Upcoming Sets
[ I May Upload Something Someday ]

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Probably because "christian" nations made a clear cut between religion and state affairs, and are therefore unhindered by clerical reactionism.

Didn't this happen exclusively after the French Revolution?

I know Brazil's had Catholicism as the official religion till not long ago. In fact, the church still has some power here.

___________________
Indiana Clones Upcoming Sets
[ I May Upload Something Someday ]

at the very least, muslims should at least respect their place of warship

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...2/ts_nm/iraq_dc

quote:

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S. forces hope to gain control of the last rebel bastion in Iraq (news - web sites)'s western city of Falluja during the night, a U.S. Marine officer said on Friday. Captain Robert Bodisch, a tank company commander, also told Reuters dozens of insurgents had been killed or captured in their last stronghold in southern Falluja. "There are lots of insurgents. My tank was attacked three times. But I would say the south is the last place we are still moving to control," he said. "Marines will try get control overnight." Bodisch said his tanks came under fire from rocket-propelled grenades and snipers positioned on mosque minarets. "We fired tank shells at the minarets. A lot of people were killed, dozens. Dozens were also captured at mosques," he said.

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Didn't this happen exclusively after the French Revolution? I know Brazil's had Catholicism as the official religion till not long ago. In fact, the church still has some power here.

Well, for the most part, yes, prior to french revolution, European countries were declared as christian ones. However, regardless of their declared faith, it was the local rulers who dictated the development of the country, not the clergy. The church was split into 4 different parts, so it was nowhere as powerful as islam and was sometimes forced to bend over to accomodate local lords. But for the most parts the local lords weren't very good at developing the country either.

The French revolution was the first event (after the US war of independence) that made a clear cut and officially declared the end of church-state interconnection. However, the revolution didn't happen all of a sudden. The church lost its firm grip on the society some 200 years earlier, during the rennaisance period. Infact I suppose the roots of that event lay in the fact that the 1000AD apocalypse never came, something that the church was continuously bragging about in order to frighten people and to attract them to their faith.

Regardless of that, development under theocracies is possible, but it's severely hindered. At the time of French revolution, and especially rennaisance, Islamic territories were generally as well developed as European ones, if not better. Let us not forget who introduced Europeans with decimal numbers, glasses, explosives, alchemy... It is only when Europe got itself released of the royal-clergical shackles that it started to gain ground in comparison to the islamic world.

As far as Brazil goes, well, I don't mean to be rude, but you can hardly say that you were a relevant factor in historical course of research and development. The countries who at the time made most important advances were the ones who were most distant from the official church, mainly France, UK, and occasionally a few protestant countries.

___________________
1+1=10

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, for the most part, yes, prior to french revolution, European countries were declared as christian ones. However, regardless of their declared faith, it was the local rulers who dictated the development of the country, not the clergy. The church was split into 4 different parts, so it was nowhere as powerful as islam and was sometimes forced to bend over to accomodate local lords. But for the most parts the local lords weren't very good at developing the country either. The French revolution was the first event (after the US war of independence) that made a clear cut and officially declared the end of church-state interconnection. However, the revolution didn't happen all of a sudden. The church lost its firm grip on the society some 200 years earlier, during the rennaisance period. Infact I suppose the roots of that event lay in the fact that the 1000AD apocalypse never came, something that the church was continuously bragging about in order to frighten people and to attract them to their faith. Regardless of that, development under theocracies is possible, but it's severely hindered. At the time of French revolution, and especially rennaisance, Islamic territories were generally as well developed as European ones, if not better. Let us not forget who introduced Europeans with decimal numbers, glasses, explosives, alchemy... It is only when Europe got itself released of the royal-clergical shackles that it started to gain ground in comparison to the islamic world. As far as Brazil goes, well, I don't mean to be rude, but you can hardly say that you were a relevant factor in historical course of research and development. The countries who at the time made most important advances were the ones who were most distant from the official church, mainly France, UK, and occasionally a few protestant countries.

The UK is a protestant country!

The Catholic Church has quite a bit of power in Africa over people's lives. Look at the spread of AIDs, it can in large part be blamed on the Pope's insistance that if you use a condom you will burn in Hell!!

I think all religions are the same (with the posible exception of Bhuddism) in the way they seek to control people's lives. The reason the (Christian) West is no longer controlled by religion (it definately was in the Middle Ages) is nothing to do with Christianity being a more "peaceful" or "advanced" religion, it is merely to do with wealth and science. The more wealth your country gets, the more it will move away from religion (and thats individual wealth not the country as a whole) Islamic countries tend not to have much wealth per capita and religion retains its control ove the people. Look at moderate Islamic countries like Turkey, they are wealthier...

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 As far as Brazil goes, well, I don't mean to be rude, but you can hardly say that you were a relevant factor in historical course of research and development.

Oi, we invented the plane (Wright Brothers, pfft), we exported coffee and we won 5 world cups!

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 The countries who at the time made most important advances were the ones who were most distant from the official church, mainly France, UK, and occasionally a few protestant countries.

But religion was a major key for their development, that's why protestant countries became capitalist super-stars

___________________
Indiana Clones Upcoming Sets
[ I May Upload Something Someday ]