quote:

Originally posted by Dunya Originally posted by NeoPhono Uhm, 350 million not 35, and that's just the start, Well I mean by that when he said that after 3 days, (that's the topic duhh) not taking into account private donations or military costs. Are you kidding? That doesn't count,even in Europe there r many private donations but that doesn't count, I m talking about the goverment. I realize that the world believes America should fend for itself, but where was the foreign aid when Florida got hit by 4 hurricanes this year? Everyone expects the US to pump billions into foreign aid and ask for nothing in return, but why can't the opposite be true? What are you expecting that countries like Somalia will help the USA?. Lol, every EU member should help a developping country.It's an obligation to aid a percentage of their budget. How much foreign aid was given after 9/11? (These are geniune questions as much as they are commentary) Did you lost your mind? Ppl in Africa and Asia are concerning about AIDS, cholera, typhus, malaria ec. And you expect that they could help you? wait a few days maybe they will call your goverment and they will donate a few billions for the eleven sep victims.

Are you for real? Please read the rest of the posts in the thread. Thanks.

I'd like to mention just a few quick points as a biased Progressive.

-First off, I am personally not surprised that the money given by our government has risen so quickly and so high. I had the upmost confidence that this would have occurred one way or another, for one reason or another. As much as I disagree with this President, he is certainly experienced enough to know how to work well with major disasters such as this. I had fully expected this President to come through, and will expect him to continue to come through with funding if need be.

-That said, I am a bit disappointed with our initial amount of $15 million. That was paultry and extrememly low, and whoever gave that initial estimate by this Administration should be looking for work. Right or wrong, it gave ammo to other countries that could have easily been avoided. And what's more and is often not reported is it gave potential ammo to potential terrorists in the largest Muslim nation in the world (Indonesia). It was bad PR for us, and potential good PR for them. Certainly not what we need right now to win over the hearts and minds of Muslims right now. If anything, Bush and/or his advisors should have looked at it in this light. Remember this from the Pentagon:

quote:

The information campaign -- or as some still would have it, "the war of ideas," or the struggle for "hearts and minds" -- is important to every war effort. In this war it is an essential objective, because the larger goals of U.S. strategy depend on separating the vast majority of non-violent Muslims from the radical-militant Islamist-Jihadists. But American efforts have not only failed in this respect: they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended. http://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/reports/...mmunication.pdf

This is a perception battle, and I can only hope that our better-late-than-never approach to giving foreign aid to this disaster works out in our favor in the long run. The battle between us and the Muslim extremists in picking up potential recruits is the battle we cannot afford to lose.

-The move by Bush to include former Pres. Clinton and Pres. Bush Sr. was a good one, IMO. Again I think it should have been done sooner. And yes, I do tend to agree that he should have taken a shorter vacation (as should Kofi - thanks Izzy for the article) again for the PR perception value, and this move with the former Presidents done on his first day back from vacation, albeit a good move, would have been a better move to have taken place some time last week.

-I didn't hear the reports, but is $350 million our final offer? I wouldn't think it would be, but if so one may perceive his move to get the former Presidents involved for the private sector donations as a means of protecting our government funds, or shall I say a lack thereof thanks be to a huge deficit and debt. That's probably the most cynical point I may make, and admittedly may be incorrect from the start if this is certainly not the final offer we give out. Nevertheless it's Monday, and I feel a bit bitchy, so I'll just throw that one out there for all to munch on.

Overall I do have confidence that we'll get the proper funding one way or another, but I do think that Bush missed the boat a little bit on the PR value with other nations, especially with the Muslims. Hopefully we'll make up for this shortfall in the coming days, weeks, and months there.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

So I just looked at the amazon.com international sites. Interesting results on donations:
(all amounts are in US $)

US: $8,938,862.42
Canada: $20,480.37
UK: $100,846.70
Japan: $3,367.00
Germany: $42,188.81
France: no option to donate on main page.
China (www.joyo.com): no option (but that is one crazy ass site and I don't read chineese)

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I'd like to mention just a few quick points as a biased Progressive.

You made me laugh today(no surprise). New Years resolution #1...drop that damn "liberal" label.

quote:

That said, I am a bit disappointed with our initial amount of $15 million. That was paultry and extrememly low, and whoever gave that initial estimate by this Administration should be looking for work.

Actually, I was too. However given how little was known since we're not talking about the most developed, industrialized nations with solid, established infrastructures(as so many have already pointed out), anyone who jumped to conclusions based on that "initial" amount was really only setting themselves up in the first place.

quote:

Right or wrong, it gave ammo to other countries that could have easily been avoided.

Ammo that kinda backfired(pardon the pun).

quote:

-I didn't hear the reports, but is $350 million our final offer? I wouldn't think it would be, but if so one may perceive his move to get the former Presidents involved for the private sector donations as a means of protecting our government funds, or shall I say a lack thereof thanks be to a huge deficit and debt. That's probably the most cynical point I may make, and admittedly may be incorrect from the start if this is certainly not the final offer we give out. Nevertheless it's Monday, and I feel a bit bitchy, so I'll just throw that one out there for all to munch on.

I don't think $350M is a "final offer". But as estimates and actual data pour in, better aid estimates can be made and further aide will flow where it's needed(hopefully more quickly rather than slowly). And let's not forget private/personal donations, which are not shown in any government figures, but which probably more accurately reflect individual persons' levels of generosity(not that anyone should ever be criticized for making any donation). Also, how do you put a pricetag on things like helicopters and ships that have gone in that can do things like purify hundreds of thousands of gallons of contaminated water for people to drink. yada yada yada, this argument goes on.

quote:

Overall I do have confidence that we'll get the proper funding one way or another, but I do think that Bush missed the boat a little bit on the PR value with other nations, especially with the Muslims. Hopefully we'll make up for this shortfall in the coming days, weeks, and months there.

I'll give you that Clinton would've probably made a public appearance earlier than Dubya, but only because he is a PR whore that never misses a chance to get some face time on the TV. In any event, it's a minor issue, IMO, and is not worth losing any sleep over. What matters is the aid that is there and helping out the people that need it-not arguing about who is giving the most and how they could've enhanced their reputation by looking at it after-the-fact.

quote:

Originally posted by Reverend_Trance Again more bitching about money. Than give your own money. Volunteer at the Red Cross. Give a Check to the Red Cross, UNECIF, etc. Instead of bitch, act!

And you would know what I do, or plan to do to help current issues? NO, you do not have the slightest idea of my current and near future actions so next time you make a comment like that make sure you know what the fuck your talking about. Do not come in here acting as if you know my life and my plans of actions.

And secondly, for your knowledge, throwing money at world issues does not solve anything. That is the exact problem with you Americans, you think money is everything. You see homeless people, throw them money, Asia after Tsunami hits, throw them money. Money, unfortunately, simply buys the necessities of life, it does not solve problems. You see a homeless person, throw them money, WTF are they going to do with it. I've worked with countless homeless people in Toronto, and I have seen their condition, and MONEY WILL NOT SOLVE THEIR PROBLEMS. My point in this entire thread is that help does not come in the form of money, which your kind seem to only think. I do not care if your country gives trillions of dollars per year, you cannot tell me that Americans are helping this world. They have created thousands of civil wars in other countries, including my own home country, where, if you want to bring up credentials, hundreds of thousands of my people were kidnapped, slaughtered and raped, including family members and close family friends. I HAD TO FUCKING LEAVE MY OWN COUNTRY BECAUSE OF YOU AND YOUR COUNTRY'S STUPIDITY. You obviously have not seen what the Americans do in other parts of the world...you know, the stuff they decide to NOT SHOW to the American public. All you want to see are the figures and stats of the money being thrown out to these nations, but in actuality, it does close to nothing. Americans are a plague to this world, and have done more harm than good. Their selfish actions have left millions dead and homeless. And your telling me I should appriciate what the Americans are doing? Fuck that, fuck America, and fuck you.

___________________
.: Greatest Trance Tracks :.
> Sun Decade - Follow You (Mike Shiver's Catching Sun Mix)
> Signum - The Timelord (Signum's Spectral Balance Mix)
> Infusion - Legacy (Junkie XL Mix)
> Way Out West - Killa
> ...

> "God Bless Amerikkka"

The secretary general and his cronies specifically asked the world for money.

Money will buy supplies from their own region helping their economy. Good sent from here may not mend with customs in that part of the world, and would just add to the confusion of things to sort. With money they can buy what they need instead of trying to figure out what to do with items given to them.

The poeple over there were not homeless to start with, unlike a bum on the streets. They are homeless as the result of a disaster so it is a much different situation. Money will solve their problems because it will restore what they had before materially and allow them to work again. It is unfortunate however that the area is so poor that they can't solve their own problems as we do when we get hit with a multibillion dollar diaster.

When all else fails blame your problems on America...You are going to die at an early age from high blood pressure.

___________________

quote:

Originally posted by eXstatic And you would know what I do, or plan to do to help current issues? NO, you do not have the slightest idea of my current and near future actions so next time you make a comment like that make sure you know what the fuck your talking about. Do not come in here acting as if you know my life and my plans of actions. And secondly, for your knowledge, throwing money at world issues does not solve anything. That is the exact problem with you Americans, you think money is everything. You see homeless people, throw them money, Asia after Tsunami hits, throw them money. Money, unfortunately, simply buys the necessities of life, it does not solve problems. You see a homeless person, throw them money, WTF are they going to do with it. I've worked with countless homeless people in Toronto, and I have seen their condition, and MONEY WILL NOT SOLVE THEIR PROBLEMS. My point in this entire thread is that help does not come in the form of money, which your kind seem to only think. I do not care if your country gives trillions of dollars per year, you cannot tell me that Americans are helping this world. They have created thousands of civil wars in other countries, including my own home country, where, if you want to bring up credentials, hundreds of thousands of my people were kidnapped, slaughtered and raped, including family members and close family friends. I HAD TO FUCKING LEAVE MY OWN COUNTRY BECAUSE OF YOU AND YOUR COUNTRY'S STUPIDITY. You obviously have not seen what the Americans do in other parts of the world...you know, the stuff they decide to NOT SHOW to the American public. All you want to see are the figures and stats of the money being thrown out to these nations, but in actuality, it does close to nothing. Americans are a plague to this world, and have done more harm than good. Their selfish actions have left millions dead and homeless. And your telling me I should appriciate what the Americans are doing? Fuck that, fuck America, and fuck you.

Easy there, Tiger. grrr.

On a side note, do tell me more about how evil AmeriKa ruined your life. It sounds like a deliciously juicy story!

quote:

Originally posted by eXstatic And you would know what I do, or plan to do to help current issues? NO, you do not have the slightest idea of my current and near future actions so next time you make a comment like that make sure you know what the fuck your talking about. Do not come in here acting as if you know my life and my plans of actions. And secondly, for your knowledge, throwing money at world issues does not solve anything. That is the exact problem with you Americans, you think money is everything. You see homeless people, throw them money, Asia after Tsunami hits, throw them money. Money, unfortunately, simply buys the necessities of life, it does not solve problems. You see a homeless person, throw them money, WTF are they going to do with it. I've worked with countless homeless people in Toronto, and I have seen their condition, and MONEY WILL NOT SOLVE THEIR PROBLEMS. My point in this entire thread is that help does not come in the form of money, which your kind seem to only think. I do not care if your country gives trillions of dollars per year, you cannot tell me that Americans are helping this world. They have created thousands of civil wars in other countries, including my own home country, where, if you want to bring up credentials, hundreds of thousands of my people were kidnapped, slaughtered and raped, including family members and close family friends. I HAD TO FUCKING LEAVE MY OWN COUNTRY BECAUSE OF YOU AND YOUR COUNTRY'S STUPIDITY. You obviously have not seen what the Americans do in other parts of the world...you know, the stuff they decide to NOT SHOW to the American public. All you want to see are the figures and stats of the money being thrown out to these nations, but in actuality, it does close to nothing. Americans are a plague to this world, and have done more harm than good. Their selfish actions have left millions dead and homeless. And your telling me I should appriciate what the Americans are doing? Fuck that, fuck America, and fuck you.

Oh so now you're bitching that giving them money won't solve the humanitarian crisis??? Now that we're providing monetary aid in an effort to save lives this isn't enough and it accomplishes nothing? Ok well should we also use the military to get aid faster to those starving and in need? Should we send 2 carriers and over 12 ships to deliver aid to areas that local governments cannot reach?

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/01/0...n.ap/index.html

Should we provide dozens of helicopters that are undergoing 24 hour sorties to deliver aid to the hardest hit areas? Helicopters that the UN describes as "worth their weight in gold"?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...03/wtsun103.xml

How did I guess that you would attempt to politicize a tragedy with irrelevant tangeants and strawman arguemnts? Perhaps you can tell us all what other countries are doing that the US is not that is actually helping the situation ... you know since what we're doing accomplishes "nothing". Perhaps you can enlighten us on what your country or you specifically are doing to help these people? You seem to have a plan of action so what is it?

___________________
Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka You made me laugh today(no surprise). New Years resolution #1...drop that damn "liberal" label.

Hehe, now my new year is already complete!

You have a good New Years? I stayed at home and played monopoly with the Mrs. over a few bottles of wine. Pretty lame, but we didn't want to mesh with the sloppy drunk drivers and sloppy drunk parties.

Then of course we went out the next night and got really sloppy, hehe.

quote:

Actually, I was too. However given how little was known since we're not talking about the most developed, industrialized nations with solid, established infrastructures(as so many have already pointed out), anyone who jumped to conclusions based on that "initial" amount was really only setting themselves up in the first place.

You're probably right, however I still think a much greater initial amount could have easily been assessed even based on the initial damage reports. I don't really blame Bush for this, but I do blame someone in his Cabinet, whoever it might be. Like I said, the PR value is pretty critical here with the biggest Muslim country in the world.

quote:

Ammo that kinda backfired(pardon the pun).

Probably, however some folks (okay, some lefties) make the claim that this UN dweeb helped light the fire under our asses (as well as the other affluent countries). I can't make the same claim because that's a bit unfounded, but either way I'm glad to see the money flowing now.

quote:

I don't think $350M is a "final offer". But as estimates and actual data pour in, better aid estimates can be made and further aide will flow where it's needed(hopefully more quickly rather than slowly). And let's not forget private/personal donations, which are not shown in any government figures, but which probably more accurately reflect individual persons' levels of generosity(not that anyone should ever be criticized for making any donation). Also, how do you put a pricetag on things like helicopters and ships that have gone in that can do things like purify hundreds of thousands of gallons of contaminated water for people to drink. yada yada yada, this argument goes on.

Yeah, I'm pretty confident to retract my claim on this now.

quote:

I'll give you that Clinton would've probably made a public appearance earlier than Dubya, but only because he is a PR whore that never misses a chance to get some face time on the TV. In any event, it's a minor issue, IMO, and is not worth losing any sleep over. What matters is the aid that is there and helping out the people that need it-not arguing about who is giving the most and how they could've enhanced their reputation by looking at it after-the-fact.

True, Clinton is a PR whore (don't cha just love him? ), but this brings up another minor beef I had with the initial response - wasn't it the Press Secretary who said a week ago Monday that they didn't want to make a statement right away because they didn't want to appear like they were merely stating "I feel your pain?"

Wait, I guess it was White House aides:

quote:

White House aides leaked that Bush, who attempts to model himself as the anti-President Bill Clinton whenever possible, wanted to avoid making an "I feel your pain" speech. But that's just what the world was looking for, and the White House risked appearing uncaring as the terrible extent of the catastrophe unfolded, critics said. "I felt like it was important to talk about what is going to be one of the major natural disasters in world history," Bush explained to reporters inTexas. "It's important for the world to know that our government is focused and will continue to respond to help those who suffer." http://www.nydailynews.com/front/st...2p-228390c.html

So they take an opportunity to show deep sympathy to this region, which contains the biggest Muslim country in the world mind you, to bash the former President? Excuse the fuck me? Yes, damnit, for one they should have been saying, "I feel your pain", or at least something along those lines, not just because we understand darth tragedy via personal national experiences, but because it's a very appropriate IMMEDIATE response! But you take that as an opportunity for more Clinton bashing?

Stupid, immaterial, inappropriate, and fucking immature, IMO. Like I said, I'm not happy with their initial response, but I do hope their work now can make up for that PR hole they dug (albeit maybe a small one). Right now it seems that it is at least working - I'm hopeful it can continue.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Hehe, now my new year is already complete! You have a good New Years? I stayed at home and played monopoly with the Mrs. over a few bottles of wine. Pretty lame, but we didn't want to mesh with the sloppy drunk drivers and sloppy drunk parties. Then of course we went out the next night and got really sloppy, hehe.

I guess it was good. Me and the wife went to a costume party of sorts and ended up out on the town, drunk, and wearing togas at 4AM. I think my waitress at Waffle House was amused.

quote:

So they take an opportunity to show deep sympathy to this region, which contains the biggest Muslim country in the world mind you, to bash the former President? Excuse the fuck me? Yes, damnit, for one they should have been saying, "I feel your pain", or at least something along those lines, not just because we understand darth tragedy via personal national experiences, but because it's a very appropriate IMMEDIATE response! But you take that as an opportunity for more Clinton bashing?

LOL. Hey, at least Clinton was up on stage with him yesterday!

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka LOL. Hey, at least Clinton was up on stage with him yesterday!

Quite true, which shows just how much of an attention whore he is - doesn't even let a little bashing not him outa the picture!

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 True, Clinton is a PR whore (don't cha just love him? ), but this brings up another minor beef I had with the initial response - wasn't it the Press Secretary who said a week ago Monday that they didn't want to make a statement right away because they didn't want to appear like they were merely stating "I feel your pain?"

... Just another example of how Clinton is still hurting this country, now even while out of office

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