quote:

Originally posted by neiil_yates and dont tell me its all Bush's fault because if any other president would of been in this spot, they would do the same thing.

Afganistan - Yes (although they might have made it differently)
Iraq - NO

quote:

Originally posted by neiil_yates The main reason why U.S is there is because its a world of Terrorism and they want to keep the fighting in there instead of it in America. Its like you gather all the terrorist there so the war can be faught by the soldiers. Thats the idea of this whole thing. And you know its sad to think people are dying but the world moves forward, civilization goes on. Sometimes you just have to think for the longrun. And im sure 20-30 years from now Middle East and the Arab world would be much better. I mean Arabs are still where Christians were 700 years ago when church was the goverment. Look at Arabic nations now, thier goverment is based on the teachings of Quran. Do you think that your country would be better staying like that, well maybe not because thats why your in Canada.

A few points: Iraq wasn't connected with Al Qaeda or 9/11, so it really had little to do with fighting terrorism. Saudi Arabia is where most of the people involved came from. Also the reason the Middle East is structured the way it is has everything to do with colonialism, same as with most oppressive regimes in Africa and elsewhere. If anyone's checked out the "America" book by Jon Stewart, my favorite is the activity where the Middle East is outlined with no political boundaries filled in and you're supposed to make them up, paying no attention to historical boundaries, the different peoples or religious divisions. That's pretty much exactly what happened after WWI and why it's difficult to create democracy there. Iraq, for example, right now has a great deal of instability, largely because of the power struggle and differences of ideology between the Sunni, Shi'ite & Kurds.

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quote:

Originally posted by neiil_yates Its crazy to think that Iraq will be as democratic as U.S but at least they can have some kind of an idea of what freedom is like.

How are they feeling free when their country is occupied and terrorisys from everywhere come and blow shit up daily?I just dont see how anyone would feel free with the current situation there

quote:

With this "democraticzation" of Iraq then will open doors to other Arab nations.

What if they choose not to be democraticized?is that a crime?what I come to yout country and force you democracy?would you accept it?
Dont forget that democracy nad freedom cannot be forced upon anyone.

quote:

The Middle East is a messed up place my friend. You have all kinds of extremistic islamics that all they think about is Allah and want to do dammage to U.S and the Christian world.

yes it is a messed up place and Americans being there isnt helping power because by them being there they are creating more hatred and more extremists. Extremism exists in all religions and thats no excuse to go invade countries.

quote:

The main reason why U.S is there is because its a world of Terrorism and they want to keep the fighting in there instead of it in America.

so lets destroy middle east for that matter so that America could be safe

quote:

Its like you gather all the terrorist there so the war can be faught by the soldiers. Thats the idea of this whole thing. And you know its sad to think people are dying but the world moves forward, civilization goes on.

Those civillians dont have to die in the first place,and you said gathering all terrorists???you think terrorism will end in Iraq?

quote:

Sometimes you just have to think for the longrun. And im sure 20-30 years from now Middle East and the Arab world would be much better.

and how do you know this?things are not going toward the right direction,and putting pupet regims wont help at all

quote:

Look at Arabic nations now, thier goverment is based on the teachings of Quran.

Isnt that the direction America is going?basing every law and decision based on religion? Bush mentions god more then anyone I know.Yet they go and criticize the muslims for running their country based on religion.

quote:

Originally posted by neiil_yates well they didnt have to worry about the bombs but had to worry about freedom of speech or getting killed for no fucking reason, just because saddams ass felt it was the right thing.

Yes we know Saddam was a bad leader and he gased his own people(thanks to the Americans for giving him the weapons)but still things were alot better then now,there was no terrorism and people at least had basic needs to live and the country had alot more stability then now.

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anyways ive made my point, i know im right, and i know your wrong. . its pointles to argue about these issues sometimes because no one will win. and to be honest me or you dont know the actual truth.

quote:

Originally posted by neiil_yates anyways ive made my point, i know im right, and i know your wrong. . its pointles to argue about these issues sometimes because no one will win. and to be honest me or you dont know the actual truth.

The truth about what exactly?

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quote:

Originally posted by occrider You really think that list will be able to stand up against peer review? FFS it's almost as bad as the Kerry is a flip-flopper list. Not to mention it's horribly dated.

hehehehe.......glad you liked my post

If only it wasnt all untrue......

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quote:

Originally posted by ogvh5150 Déjà vu post from some other forum: The "OH SO GREAT" United States of America Possibly from this page: A question-and-answer guide to the world's leading "rogue state" There is always going to be a boogey man. Whether it is the USA, Iraq, Iran, North Korea or Paul Oakenfold. People are so easily distracted, and so gullible.

Thanks for the links.....i was looking for something like that auctually, i didnt get it from either of those sources just came across it surfing the web and it seemed relevant to the topic in hand......yeah i like Robert Fisk not afraid to tell the truth...

Deja vu maybe but still relevant.

Heres another list from one of the lists you provided

Thanks again





Following is a list of prominent foreign leaders whose assassination
(or planning for same) the United States has been involved in since
the end of Second World War. The list does not include several
assassinations in various parts of the world carried out by anti-Castro
Cubans employed by CIA and headquartered in the United States:

LIST A:
1949 - KIm Koo, Korean opposition leader
1950's - CIA/Neo-Nazi hit list of numerous political figures in
West Germany
1955 - Jose' Antonio Remon, President of Panama
1950's Chou En-lai, Prime Minister of China, several attempts
on his life
1951 - Kim Il Sung, Premiere of North Korea
1950s (mid) - Claro M. Recto, Philippines opposition leader
1955 - Jawar Lal Nehru, Prime Minister of India
1959 and 1963 - Norodom Sihanouk, leader of Cambodia
1950s-70s - Jose Figueres, President of Costa Rica,
two attempts on his life
1961 - Francois "Papa Doc"Duvalier, leader of Haiti
1961 - Patrice Lumumba , Prime Minister of Congo (Zaire)
1961 - Gen. Rafael Trujillo, leader of Dominican Republic
1963 - Ngo Dinh Diem, President of South Vietnam
1960s - Fidel Castro, President of Cuba, more than
15 attempts on his life
1960s - Raul Castro, high official in government of Cuba
1965 - Francisco Caamanao, Dominican Republic opposition leader
1965 - Pierre Ngendandumwe, Prime Minister of Burundi
1967 - Che Guevara, Cuban leader
1970 - Salvadore Allende, President of Chile
1970 - General Rene Schneider, Commander-in-Chief of Army, Chile
1970s and 1981 - Gen. Omar Torrijos, leader of Panama
1972 - General Manuel Noriega, Chief of Panama Intelligence
1975 - Mobutu Sese Seko, President of Zaire
1976 - Michael Manley, Prime Minister of Jamaica
1983 - Miguel d'Escoto, Foreign Minister of Nicaragua
1984 - The nine commandantes of the Sandanista
National Directorate
1980's - Dr. Gerald Bull, Canadian Ballistics Scientist
assassinated by Mossad in Belgium.

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quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Maybe you could quote your source next time? There's no shame in admitting you couldn't think up things yourself. That's a nice U.S. bashing list but hardly supports the arguement of why the U.S. helps other nations the way it does. The point of the whole thread is why does the U.S. get involved? The european colonizer had no fucking business being here? What?? Good greif. What a convenient and selective history we have. Yes, HUGE pieces of land. Do a google and check it out yourself. I've said it before and I'll say it again; it was the era of exploration and colonization. To put a finer point on it; there was nothing wrong with doing what needed to be done at that point in time. Wealth was driven by LAND and the annexing of new lands. THAT was my point of answering the driveling question regarding the Native Americans (god knows why they even entered the equation).

Thats a very interesting post you made here.

I presume you are trying to rubbish me because you didnt agree with the list of questions that i posted albeit from another source.

If you look back over this thread you will see that i didnt post here until page 5 and it was a post in reply to Shakka regarding the UN.

But suddenly im quoted as saying this....by you


Originally posted by zig
HUGE pieces of land? What the fuck are you on? Before they were colonized/massacred/conquered they had ALL of the land. The european colonizer had no fucking business being here in the first place. So I don't really see what you're point is.


But if you go back and check on page 4 this quote was auctually made by somebody else.....rather curious.....the quote was auctually made by Shaolin_Z it wasnt made by me at all, i dont mind being quoted in the least, but putting quotes from other posters because it suits you to get at me and customizeing the post so my name shows up as the origional poster, well what can i say......mistake perhaps...maybe...if you dont like my posts debate them like everyone else, the curious thing to me is that your post came after several negative posts directed at me from other people on the forum, which is fine, but maybe you just lost the track of yourself in your haste to condemn me.......to quote yourself from from page 2 of this thread.

Amazing how selective arguements get when trying to make a point huh?

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Sorry Zig; it was supposed to be shaolin_Z yes.
Bad cutting and pasting on my part

It's bad enough that this post is all over the place, I certainly don't need to confuse it

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quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r Sorry Zig; it was supposed to be shaolin_Z yes. Bad cutting and pasting on my part It's bad enough that this post is all over the place, I certainly don't need to confuse it

Yeah no problems.....

I know i use the odd F**k in my posts, but i knew those particular ones werent mine.......

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Anyway on the issue of America delivering democracy around the world, do they never learn from recent mistakes........

Abuses at Bagram airbase, Afghanistan

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