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Originally posted by NeoPhono Can you acquire mental retardation, enzymatic diseases or genetic deficiencies through contact? The answer is easily 'no.'

I know you're right, but I couldn't help but note that we may have found an exception.

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Huh? Can you show me the physiology behind your statement? How exactly do antibiotics weaken your immune system?

Not sure why I'm even going here, but if I'm going to give him any credit for having a functioning head, I'm going to assume he's referring to the immune system building up a resistance to certain anti-biotics after multiple or prolonged exposure to certain of them. I don't see how this makes a person's immune system weaker, however. I do see how it renders external drugs less effective for some people over time.

Immune system was designed to fight illnesses very well, improving over time. In today's world, the diseases are becoming too powerful for the immune system - thats my whole point. Taking drugs makes bacteria more drug resistant. Facts!!! So basically we're creating more deadly strains of disease!!! Thats why the immune system cant fight it anymore!!! So whose fault is it? Humans! We created it, our fault. Natives never had these horrible diseases. I see that your point is that its good to be exposed to these terrible diseases so that we can create very powerful drugs that can wipe us out anytime.

If Natives didnt have degenerative diseases, and had only 1% tooch decay, thats TWO major proof points of their higher life expenctancy. I cant find the proof at the moment, other than in an excellent book: "Last Hours Of Ancient Sunlight" by Thom Hartmann.

Oh, and I never said anything about mental retardation, enzymatic diseases or genetic deficiencies. So stop changing topics! I said acquiring diseases through genetic engineering!

If you think antibiotics and drugs are so good, then why are there more diseases out there? Alzheimers, AIDS, Lou Gerig's - theese are all new diseases! You expect me to believe that everything's alright and its OK to live in the world of more sick people and illness is normal! Thats bullsh-t. Cancer is growing, for example. So it obesity. So is tubercoulosis. So is AIDS, diabetics. There's no end in sight. And you're telling me fairy tales.

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

All you do is shoot holes in my story. Well, then, how about you answer me, why is disease on the rise, and what is your alleged medicine/science/antibiotics doing about it? Are they curbing the spread of disease? Are governments working hard to bring healthier lifestyles, and where are the positive results?

I rest my case. I expect you to tell me a bunch of horseshit of how wonderful our science is and that we're winning the war on disease. We're actually losing the war. Drugs and antibiotics have failed. We need another direction. We need to concentrate on prevention. We need to educate people better. None of these any other positive things have been implemented, largely at fault of governments, corporations and religion (religion only takes solace that the end of the world is coming - what a relief!!!!)

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium All you do is shoot holes in my story. Well, then, how about you answer me, why is disease on the rise, and what is your alleged medicine/science/antibiotics doing about it? Are they curbing the spread of disease? Are governments working hard to bring healthier lifestyles, and where are the positive results? I rest my case. I expect you to tell me a bunch of horseshit of how wonderful our science is and that we're winning the war on disease. We're actually losing the war. Drugs and antibiotics have failed. We need another direction. We need to concentrate on prevention. We need to educate people better. None of these any other positive things have been implemented, largely at fault of governments, corporations and religion (religion only takes solace that the end of the world is coming - what a relief!!!!)

Disease is on the rise? Since when?

This tetracycline has definitely cleared up my little bacterial infection pretty damn well. Never failed me.

I'll tell you why diseases are on the "rise." (although statistically I find no mention that today more people live in a diseased state than at any other time in history)

1. People live longer. Many of the diseases you're talking about are a product of aging. Why did we have no Alzheimer's or Parkinson's, and why do we have increased rates of cancer? Because people live longer. Your DNA slowly and naturally oxidizes throughout your entire life. Eventually you have problems. 4,000 years ago people lived to the ripe old age of 30. Now, people live to be 80 and beyond. That's 50 more years of in which to aquire disease.

2. Diseases are diagnosed better now. Thousands of years ago there were three forms of death. Either you died of a traumatic incident, you got "sick" and died, or you died of "old age." Now, every time someone dies, we have to have an explaination for it. Heart disease, CHF, diabetes, etc. Today every time a person has any type of chronic condition, we give it a name and slap it on them. 1,000 years ago you lived with what you had, and no one put a name on it. Now we have names for all these different diseases that have been around forever, and so now we have lots of people walking around with labels on. It may seem that we are more disease-prone today, but I would argue the opposite. We name and diagnose more diseases today, but we actually have less as a percentage of the overall population.

Taking antibiotics does not make bacteria "more powerful," it simply makes tham drug resistant. There is a difference. Before the advent of antibiotics many people died of infections we today consider benign. With drug resistant bacteria, you can no longer treat them with common antibiotics, but the body fights them in exactly the same manner as any other infection. It is no more "powerful" than the previous line of bacteria other than you can no longer treat it with the "older" antibiotics. If you are going to equate the "power" of a bacteria with its resistance to medicine I guess you're conceding that the power of a disease is relative to its strength against modern drug treatment and not as it acts against our own immune system. The diseases are only "more deadly" because they are no longer treatable with medicine. They are no "more deadly" than the non drug-resistant strains. If you don't take antibiotics, the drug-resistant and non drug-resistant strains will kill you just the same.

And I beg to differ, you told me that native Americans didn't have type I diabetes, in fact you said:

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As for diabetes: yes, I know about that. Its just the same story for tuberculosis. My point is, natives dont have it.

You also said:

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Diabetes: refer to what I just said. We have created this disease. Natives never had this originally.

You then equated tuberculosis with diabetes: (from first quote)

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As for diabetes: yes, I know about that. Its just the same story for tuberculosis.

So, either you're confusing diabetes with a communicable disease or you're confused as to what the etiology of a genetically inheritable disease is. Dietary changes, especially post-partum, are not going to do a thing about these diseases. And unless you're genetically engineering the fetus, I'm not seeing where your genetic engineering argument has any merit. It's also of significance to note that diabetes as well as the diseases I list below have been around for a lot longer than we've been genetically engineering anything. These diseases are found natively within populations and have nothing to do with any part of your pharmaceutical company diatribe.

Would you like some examples?

Tay-sachs in the Ashkenazi
Sickle-cell anemia in West Africans
Beta thalassemia in the Mediterranean region
Diabetes in the Pima Indians (oh, what's that?)
Cystic fibrosis in European Americans
PKU in the Scottish and Irish
Glucose-6-Phosphate Dehydrogenase Deficiency and Italians

Can you show me the genetic engineering that caused these diseases?

Last edited by NeoPhono on May-29-2006 at 17:37

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Originally posted by NeoPhono Diabetes in the Pima Indians (oh, what's that?)

And I'm pretty sure Lou Gehrig's disease is not new since Gehrig died of ALS in 1941. And it's probably not a far stretch to believe ALS existed well before that, only it wasn't well chronicled. It's probably about as new as polio, which, thanks to modern medicine, has all but been eradicated. Who wants to wager that "drug-free" Magnetonium has had more than one vaccine in his life?

Last edited by Shakka on May-29-2006 at 22:11

"poor Lou Gehrig, how'd he not see that comin...here Lou, have a hot dog and a hummer on me."

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Originally posted by Shakka And I'm pretty sure Lou Gehrig's disease is not new since Gehrig died of ALS in 1941. And it's probably not a far stretch to believe ALS existed well before that, only it wasn't well chronicled. It's probably about as new as polio, which, thanks to modern medicine, has all but been eradicated. Who wants to wager that "drug-free" Magnetonium has had more than one vaccine in his life?

I was vaccinated when I was young, it wasnt my choice, and frankly it doesnt matter anymore. And I never said that Indians had ABSOLUTELY NO degenerative diseases, they had significantly less.

I see that you guys think that everything is fine, the governments are honest, the world health is improving, people's life expectancy is on the rise, standards of living are higher, governments no longer lie to us .. .EVERYTHING IS F-CKING BETTER. And plus the environment is in top shape. Environment has never been healthier. We dont release harmful amounts of pollution and chemicals into environment, our soil is stronger, bla bla bla bla bla bla .... Alright, you can live in your ignorance. I am tired of this thread.

Actually, I am done with this thread. Hopefully one day, if not too late, you'll be able to see things outside of your propaganda books about how amazing the world is.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Actually, I am done with this thread. Hopefully one day, if not too late, you'll be able to see things outside of your propaganda books about how amazing the world is.

I dont understand you conspiracy theory types. Is there anything in this world that is widely accepted that you believe? seriously

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Actually, I am done with this thread. Hopefully one day, if not too late, you'll be able to see things outside of your propaganda books about how amazing the world is.

Translation: I ran out of arguments and have contradicted myself a hundred times and am no longer able to make a single new statement which doesn't contradict at least one of my previous statements or makes me look like an idiot.

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1+1=10

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Originally posted by Magnetonium I was vaccinated when I was young, it wasnt my choice, and frankly it doesnt matter anymore. And I never said that Indians had ABSOLUTELY NO degenerative diseases, they had significantly less. I see that you guys think that everything is fine, the governments are honest, the world health is improving, people's life expectancy is on the rise, standards of living are higher, governments no longer lie to us .. .EVERYTHING IS F-CKING BETTER. And plus the environment is in top shape. Environment has never been healthier. We dont release harmful amounts of pollution and chemicals into environment, our soil is stronger, bla bla bla bla bla bla .... Alright, you can live in your ignorance. I am tired of this thread. Actually, I am done with this thread. Hopefully one day, if not too late, you'll be able to see things outside of your propaganda books about how amazing the world is.

Nobody is trying to make the claim that everything is hunky-dory and that the world is without myriad problems. However, I think that what's rubbing many the wrong way is that you have an incredibly black/white viewpoint on this subject (which, in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing, however the conclusions you are jumping to are, IMO). If it's not A, then the government must be behind a grand conspiracy to hoodwink you. It's clear from your posts that you think you already have all the answers, even when presented well-qualified opinions from people who know far more about the subject matter at hand than yourself, and who have much more rational conclusions supported by physical evidence to back their own assertions, as opposed to simply stating something followed by "Fact!!" (FYI, I'm talking about Neo). If you want to throw in the towel, by all means. I think the board members have been quite tolerant and willing to entertain your conspiracy theories to this point.

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Originally posted by Shakka Nobody is trying to make the claim that everything is hunky-dory and that the world is without myriad problems. However, I think that what's rubbing many the wrong way is that you have an incredibly black/white viewpoint on this subject (which, in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing, however the conclusions you are jumping to are, IMO). If it's not A, then the government must be behind a grand conspiracy to hoodwink you. It's clear from your posts that you think you already have all the answers, even when presented well-qualified opinions from people who know far more about the subject matter at hand than yourself, and who have much more rational conclusions supported by physical evidence to back their own assertions, as opposed to simply stating something followed by "Fact!!" (FYI, I'm talking about Neo). If you want to throw in the towel, by all means. I think the board members have been quite tolerant and willing to entertain your conspiracy theories to this point.

Honestly to say, I dont have time for piling up links to back up every word I said here, especially when a lot of claims were made against my points with little or no evidence to back them. I dont know why I even came to this forum area, I rarely chat anyway. I am a very busy man.

I was basically stating that humans are in a lot of trouble right now as a result of environment damage, government corruption and lies, religion, disease, wars, etc. There's plenty of evidence to back some of my points, and some others are my conclusions from them. But enough. Let ignorance prevail (as I described in better detail in my previous post). I have more success spreading my word outside of computer, and developed some good friends as a result and we are trying to help people out of the sh-thole that the civilization is going into.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture