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Originally posted by Orko It has to be a 'build it, and they will come' kind of thing with public transport in the GTA. You probably will not find a bigger advocate for public transport than me, but even I have realised that it just is not practical for a lot of people. I have to include biking and walking to make my routes efficient and cost effective. The average person does not have the patience, dedication, nor physical ability to do it.

we are on the exact same wavelenght. Build it and they'll come.

Govts have to be serious and show that they are willing to offer better service before forcing people to abandon their cars with different unproductive measures like HOV, biking lanes, reserved lanes, removing highways, higher gas tax, etc.

Your average joe isn't that stupid, if he can get to his work in approx. the same time cheaper, he'll take it no questions asked... but until then, don't expect him to magically switch because some hippies said so.

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Originally posted by Superstring Good stuff. So what about the new City of Toronto tax - the PVT (personal vehicle tax). The "congestion" on the streets is caused by people commuting from the burbs (who won't pay the PVT). And yet, I, as the resident of Toronto, have to pay this bullshit fee now. How about we instead implement a toll system on the downtown (like in London) - want to drive in the city, pay up. I know the downtown-ers rarely use cars in the core and take transit whenever they can. The 'Sauga, Oakville, RichHill, Scarberia, Halton Hills, Milton, Whitby and Pickering residents, on the other hand, enjoy lower insurance on their cars, don't pay the PVT, and yet get to friggin drive down here every day... So, if people are free to take their car whenever they want - and WE want them to take transit, lets make driving a car in the core more expensive.

These people who drive, do more mileage, consume more gas, hence send more tax to the federal and provincial govts (gas price at the pump are almost taxed at 50%). Moreoever, I bet suburbans are richer than Torontians living in the core, so meaning they send more in income taxes to the different levels of govt which trickles down back to the city of toronto.

If toronto can't manage the billions it reaps in taxes, it means something is wrong at their level, they need to cut services and lower working conditions to their overunionized workforce.

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Originally posted by malek These people who drive, do more mileage, consume more gas, hence send more tax to the federal and provincial govts (gas price at the pump are almost taxed at 50%).

Good point. And I pay the same taxes when I hop on the streetcar and the bus and the subway. Except that downtowners are ok with sharing a ride, spending less gas, sharing the space on the road and wearing down the road infrastructure less -- and 'burber's are not.

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Originally posted by malek Moreoever, I bet suburbans are richer than Torontians living in the core, so meaning they send more in income taxes to the different levels of govt which trickles down back to the city of toronto.

I bet that 95% of statistics on the internet are made up and that 67% of your post is pulled out of your ass. Care to prove otherwise?

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Originally posted by malek If toronto can't manage the billions it reaps in taxes, it means something is wrong at their level, they need to cut services and lower working conditions to their overunionized workforce.

Ah yes, billions in taxes already and overunionized workforce. Yes yes, that is the evil which we are discussing here. Nice diversion.


This discussion has to do with out-of-towners utilizing in-town infrastructure and not paying for it directly to the city of toronto (and no, not to the federal/provincial government, thank you very much).

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If I had to move to a deserted island, I would take only one CD with me: Cygnus X - Superstring! Yes, recorded 20 times in a row!

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Originally posted by Superstring Good stuff. So what about the new City of Toronto tax - the PVT (personal vehicle tax). The "congestion" on the streets is caused by people commuting from the burbs (who won't pay the PVT). And yet, I, as the resident of Toronto, have to pay this bullshit fee now. How about we instead implement a toll system on the downtown (like in London) - want to drive in the city, pay up. I know the downtown-ers rarely use cars in the core and take transit whenever they can. The 'Sauga, Oakville, RichHill, Scarberia, Halton Hills, Milton, Whitby and Pickering residents, on the other hand, enjoy lower insurance on their cars, don't pay the PVT, and yet get to friggin drive down here every day... So, if people are free to take their car whenever they want - and WE want them to take transit, lets make driving a car in the core more expensive.

What the hell does insurance have to do with it? Those are rates set by private firms, due to actual statistics they have collected.

As for all the out of towner's. They are driving into Toronto to generate economic growth for companies, which turn around and pay taxes. They also come in, shop, and keep local businesses going. The average person working downtown pays a lot for that privilege to the local economy, it is not just about taxes. Parking, food, entertainment, that shit adds up. Sure the city has to pay for maintenance for the highway, but the amount of money generated by those people using the highway, far out weighs its cost.

That is the whole point of city infrastructure. Loose money on one part, to gain on another part. Start taxing that infrastructure, and people will find alternatives like relocating to the burbs, and the city will loose even more money.

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Originally posted by Orko What the hell does insurance have to do with it? Those are rates set by private firms, due to actual statistics they have collected. As for all the out of towner's. They are driving into Toronto to generate economic growth for companies, which turn around and pay taxes. They also come in, shop, and keep local businesses going. The average person working downtown pays a lot for that privilege to the local economy, it is not just about taxes. Parking, food, entertainment, that shit adds up. Sure the city has to pay for maintenance for the highway, but the amount of money generated by those people using the highway, far out weighs its cost. That is the whole point of city infrastructure. Loose money on one part, to gain on another part. Start taxing that infrastructure, and people will find alternatives like relocating to the burbs, and the city will loose even more money.

Far outweighs the cost? I guess then you can explain to me why the city has a deficit?

I'm not disputing that out-of-towners generate money. I'm saying that the amount of money that is generated is not enough. In other words, while you claim that the city is better off, it is in fact the opposite (or the city wouldn't be in the hole...)

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If I had to move to a deserted island, I would take only one CD with me: Cygnus X - Superstring! Yes, recorded 20 times in a row!

Yes so the city of Toronto is completely undetached from the rest of the galaxy. It gets not a single penny from the different levels of govt.

Let's talk about your TTC, it's subsidized 25% by the federal and provincial govt in 2006 (look at their 2006 annual report).

Why don't YOU pay for the real price of using mass transit? TTC would need to hike by 33% its revenue to compensate those subsidies. (I'm not advocating removing those subsidies, i'm using this just as an example)

You seem to brush off the fact that congestion is part of living in a city, there's not a single city on earth the size of Toronto (or Montreal, or Vancouver) that has no congestion problems at rush hour, no matter how effecient the transit system is. Look at Paris, it has an amazing transit system, light years ahead of what we have here, subway stations at every 500m and yet congestion is a nightmare. Tokyo is no different, congestion is part of cities, get used to it.

Downtowners may be alright with sharing a ride, spending less on gas, that's because they have no other choice. Paying for expensive housing and services downtown leaves very little for anything else (other than your expensive latté), let alone owning a car.

My point, Toronto is part of a big conurbation and can't be detached from its surroundings. There's not a single auto manufacturer in the city center of Toronto, yet the hundred of thousands who work there, spend and invest money in banks and services headquartered in Toronto. If Toronto was its own little universe, it wouldn't have benefited from all the manufacturing base surrounding it and beyond for the last century to build itself as "downtown canada".

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Originally posted by Yohan Now I haven't lived in Toronto regularly for 7 yrs, but exactly what improvements TTC made? Specially for people who live in East Scarborough or West Etobicoke? Would you spend like 2 hrs trying to get to downtown?

I live in Western Etobicoke and it takes roughly 45-50 minutes to get to Dundas Station from my house. Hardly 2 hours...

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Originally posted by Superstring This discussion has to do with out-of-towners utilizing in-town infrastructure and not paying for it directly to the city of toronto (and no, not to the federal/provincial government, thank you very much).

Umm what about green P parking? I'm from the 'burbs and when I'm visiting friends and family in Toronto, I pay my dues with the parking.



Sorry that you're bitching about the PVT. Talk to your city counsellor about it. But don't take it out on the people who have to spend more to get to the city.

By the way, if you're one of those who want to be out in the city and want to stay out late, what kind of convenience would it be to take the transit all the way back to the suburbs. That's why we drive.

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Originally posted by Superstring Far outweighs the cost? I guess then you can explain to me why the city has a deficit?

The city pays for more than just highways.

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Originally posted by Superstring Far outweighs the cost? I guess then you can explain to me why the city has a deficit?

Well first of all, it is illegal for the city to run a deficit. So there goes that theory.

Secondly, the traffic problem is not responsible for the city's money problems. How about councilors who get $40k/year to spend on expenses? Or a computer contract that ended up costing $100million(link ,link)? Or, or, or...the city has massive problems controlling cost. You cannot possibly blame it all on traffic woes.

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Originally posted by malek Let's talk about your TTC, it's subsidized 25% by the federal and provincial govt in 2006 (look at their 2006 annual report). Why don't YOU pay for the real price of using mass transit? TTC would need to hike by 33% its revenue to compensate those subsidies. (I'm not advocating removing those subsidies, i'm using this just as an example)

So wait wait wait. I'm actually OK with paying more for TTC. Really, I would be. Would that mean that out-of-towners would be forced to pay more for the roads?

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If I had to move to a deserted island, I would take only one CD with me: Cygnus X - Superstring! Yes, recorded 20 times in a row!

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Originally posted by Orko Well first of all, it is illegal for the city to run a deficit. So there goes that theory. Secondly, the traffic problem is not responsible for the city's money problems. How about councilors who get $40k/year to spend on expenses? Or a computer contract that ended up costing $100million(link ,link)? Or, or, or...the city has massive problems controlling cost. You cannot possibly blame it all on traffic woes.

Hah, I'm not saying that at all. But the topic of this discussion is roads. Specifically, roads and highways through the core that are mostly used by people from outside the city.

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If I had to move to a deserted island, I would take only one CD with me: Cygnus X - Superstring! Yes, recorded 20 times in a row!