quote:

Originally posted by xfrodobagginsx 1)When Jesus said that He didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfil it that is true. Because He fulfilled the law, we are no longer uner the law.

But Jesus didn't say anything like "we are no longer under the law" though - in fact, in each of these verses he says the exact opposite. What part of "Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven" indicates to you that Jesus wouldn't have expected his followers to obey the law?

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2)In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus tells the man "You know the commandments..." What Jesus was trying to establish was the fact that the man was not perfect. No one has ever kept the law.

Firstly, Jesus wasn't addressing "a man" he was addressing an entire crowd. Secondly, this whole section of the Sermon on the Mount (~ 5:17 - 7:12) is Jesus explaining to his followers how to find reward in the coming Kingdom of Heaven. Virtually all of his "requirements" are based - directly or indirectly - in Jewish law. I'm prepared to accept that sin under the law is inevitable and that the scripture says that belief in Jesus Christ is the only path to avoid sin, but that's a very different thing from saying that, with Jesus, the old laws all of a sudden no longer count.

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How are you going to understand spiritual things if (as someone has said, forgive me if I am mistaken) you are not a believer? You need the Holy Spirit to under stand the bible.

If I don't "understand" then it's only because you're not doing a very good job of justifying your position.

quote:

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.

1 Peter 3:15

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The problem with you is that you are fixated on one or two verses and won't even consider the dozens of other verses that deal with this issue. If you look at the verses I showed you, and if you believe that the bible doesn't contradict it's self, you will see it. I can't make you understand something that is Spritual if you aren't willing to believe it.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
(KJV)

This verse means that you can't take one or two verses by themselves and just form a belief out of them. You must compare it to the rest of the bible. When this is done, it becomes obvious that works don't save. If you only look at a small window, I can see where you would come to that conclusion.

Question for you:

Do you believe that the bible contains contradictions?

I don't. If you do, that will hinder you from understanding.

Are you a Christian?

Why don't you ask The Lord to help you understand. It's very easy for me, but I have the Holy Spirit. I know, I know, I sound like I am full of myself but I am telling you the truth. What do I do? Lie? I am telling you that if you will accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, He will help you understand His word through His Holy Spirit.

You need the Holy Spirit to understand:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(KJV)

This verse is a true statement. The natural man is the unsaved man. The man who doesn't have the Holy Spirit inside Him to help Him understand God's word. Man with all of my heart, I am telling you that this is what you need. You need a genuine relationship with God. Yes it is possible to know the true God personally. Do Christians understand everything that the bible says? No. We have to learn it as well. But we understand it much better than someone who is not saved. I have heard many, many people say that they could not understand the bible before they were saved and after they got saved, they saw the bible in a totally different way. That's because they are guided by the Spirit of God. They aren't lying. I know that because of my own experience with God. The God of the bible is the real God. He is the true God, and You can really know Him. What have you got to lose if I am wrong? Pray that prayer in this original thread directly to God, believe it with all of your strength and watch what happens. He will change the way you see things, not just in the bible, but about everything. You will understand things the way that God intended for you to. Christians are not perfect, we are just forgiven, not because of what we did, but because of what God did. Try it now and let me know what happens.

quote:

Originally posted by xfrodobagginsx The problem with you is that you are fixated on one or two verses and won't even consider the dozens of other verses that deal with this issue. If you look at the verses I showed you, and if you believe that the bible doesn't contradict it's self, you will see it. I can't make you understand something that is Spritual if you aren't willing to believe it. 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (KJV) This verse means that you can't take one or two verses by themselves and just form a belief out of them. You must compare it to the rest of the bible. When this is done, it becomes obvious that works don't save. If you only look at a small window, I can see where you would come to that conclusion. Question for you: Do you believe that the bible contains contradictions? I don't. If you do, that will hinder you from understanding. Are you a Christian? Why don't you ask The Lord to help you understand. It's very easy for me, but I have the Holy Spirit. I know, I know, I sound like I am full of myself but I am telling you the truth. What do I do? Lie? I am telling you that if you will accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, He will help you understand His word through His Holy Spirit. You need the Holy Spirit to understand: 1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (KJV) This verse is a true statement. The natural man is the unsaved man. The man who doesn't have the Holy Spirit inside Him to help Him understand God's word. Man with all of my heart, I am telling you that this is what you need. You need a genuine relationship with God. Yes it is possible to know the true God personally. Do Christians understand everything that the bible says? No. We have to learn it as well. But we understand it much better than someone who is not saved. I have heard many, many people say that they could not understand the bible before they were saved and after they got saved, they saw the bible in a totally different way. That's because they are guided by the Spirit of God. They aren't lying. I know that because of my own experience with God. The God of the bible is the real God. He is the true God, and You can really know Him. What have you got to lose if I am wrong? Pray that prayer in this original thread directly to God, believe it with all of your strength and watch what happens. He will change the way you see things, not just in the bible, but about everything. You will understand things the way that God intended for you to. Christians are not perfect, we are just forgiven, not because of what we did, but because of what God did. Try it now and let me know what happens.

A recap of where we are:

quote:

The storyline usually goes: 1. Occ/Renegade/anyone-with-a-neuron-firing-in-their-craniums will continue taking apart our dear Frodo's arguments one by one. 2. Frodo will not answer one single refutation, or if he/she does he/she won't answer directly in the slightest. 3. Occ/Renegade/anyone-with-a-neuron-firing-in-their-craniums will point out the dodging and misunderstandings of our dear Frodo. 4. Frodo will either continue failing to understand how to argue and counterargue effectively in a debate OR will deliberately avoid such arguments in hopes to divert attention away from those unanswered counterarguments. 5. Occ/Renegade/anyone-with-a-neuron-firing-in-their-craniums will get mad. 6. Frodo will continue down his/her road of preaching The Good Albeit Contradictory Word 7. Neo will eventually get forced into closing down the thread to stop the silly preaching before Occ/Renegade/anyone-with-a-neuron-firing-in-their-craniums have an aneurism. 8. I giggle.

#1 - Done
#2 - Done
#3 - Done
#4 - Done
#5 - Done
#6 - We're here and moving dangerously close to the last step

Okay Frodo, before Neo shuts this down, do your darnest to demonstrate my prediction wrong. Nothing to what you said above or ANYWHERE has DIRECTLY addressed Renegade's insightful refutations and points to your posts.

YOU HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF TO DIRECTLY ADDRESS RENEGADE'S POSTS. TELLING US THAT WE NEED THE HOLY SPIRIT TO UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT IS FALLACIOUS AND CIRCULAR REASONING, AND IT DOES NOT IN ANY WAY ADDRESS RENEGADE'S POINTS. HE HAS CONCISELY ARGUED IN DETAIL EVERY ONE OF YOUR POINTS AND HAS GIVEN YOU MORE THAN JUST "ONE OR TWO VERSUS", AND YOU KNOW IT. WHAT DOES GOD SAY ABOUT BEARING FALSE WITNESS? PLEASE DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BEAR FALSE WITNESS AGAINST RENEGADE HERE AS YOU KNOW HE HAS BROUGHT UP NUMEROUS CITATIONS TO BOLSTER HIS ARGUMENT, LET ALONE DETAIL YOUR REFERENCES AS ERRONEOUSLY UTILIZED.

So here it is, bub. Answer his arguments NOT by citing more references and dodging his points and NOT by circular reasoning (i.e. telling us all we need the Holy Spirit to understand your points). Answer his posts directly or your time on the spiritual soapbox is history. This is a debate forum, so debate the points DIRECTLY laid in front of you, please. Time is ticking.............

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

^^ Shouldn't number 8 be occuring at every phase ?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by xfrodobagginsx The problem with you is that you are fixated on one or two verses and won't even consider the dozens of other verses that deal with this issue. If you look at the verses I showed you, and if you believe that the bible doesn't contradict it's self, you will see it. I can't make you understand something that is Spritual if you aren't willing to believe it.

The problem with you is that you have no substantive contextual basis for the arguments you are making or you can't properly articulate your argument in the context of this debate. This debate being let's look at the bible as a whole rather than the peices you like to pay attention to. Hence the reason why you keep utilizing logical fallacies such as circular reasoning to make your arguments. You can't put any substance behind your arguments to dispute Renegade's scriptural references and so you label yourself as an authority (you don't believe the bible contradicts itself ... therefore you understand it better ... you have the holy spirit on your side which means the bible doesn't make sense to anyone who doesn't believe in it) and subsequently use the appeal to authority (aka yourself) to make your argument.

And yet here's where that argument always fails. Since Renegade can't interpret the bible due to his lack of faith ... you the spiritually enlightened individual, who is fully capable of understanding the bible can. So why don't you deconstruct all the bible verses Renegade referenced and tell us what they really mean. And by this I don't mean quote other verses of the bible to dispute it. EVERY word in the bible is the word of God and thus there is meaning with every verse. Since you have the holy ghost on your side, I'm sure you can explain to us what God meant in each of the verses that Renegade quoted. And you can't quote other parts of the bible to say that the parts Renegade quoted are wrong. The bible is the word of God and thus infallible so what is God trying to say in each of those passages if not what Renegade implies irrespective of what other parts of the bible say? In other words, why would God/Jesus say to adhere to the old laws in one part of the bible while supposedly saying one need not in other parts?

quote:

A recap of where we are:

I was ready for #7 a while ago.

___________________
Retro ...

quote:

Originally posted by xfrodobagginsx The problem with you is that you are fixated on one or two verses and won't even consider the dozens of other verses that deal with this issue. If you look at the verses I showed you, and if you believe that the bible doesn't contradict it's self, you will see it. I can't make you understand something that is Spritual if you aren't willing to believe it.

We dont have to belive that the bible contradicts itslef, we alredy know it does. People have gone trough the bible and pointed out every single contradiction in it (someone once posted a nice page that listed all the contradictions in the bible, i think it was either Occ or Opus....but ive lost the bookmark since then...was an interesting read none the less). One doesnt need to be spiritual to analize a book, if one can analize Shakespeare and other literary classic without being spiritual he take on any other book he wants.

quote:

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (KJV)

Sounds reasonable, but unfortunately quite wrong. Its as open to private interpretation as every other piece of work out there. I cant imagine otherwise how people can go on killing sprees and still belive that they are doing gods work and that at the end they will still end up in heaven.

quote:

This verse means that you can't take one or two verses by themselves and just form a belief out of them. You must compare it to the rest of the bible. When this is done, it becomes obvious that works don't save. If you only look at a small window, I can see where you would come to that conclusion.

It actualy doesnt but hey, you are the enlightened spiritual one you cant possibly be wrong.

quote:

Do you believe that the bible contains contradictions? I don't. If you do, that will hinder you from understanding.

I find it funny that some people can belive in god and still belive that the bible might contain a mistake or two (due to the many translations from and to various languages it went to during its time. How accurate these translation were is anaybodys guess). Its completely reasonable to assume that at some point in history some translator screwed up. Not intentionaly, he just didnt know better and the message of the bible got skewed.

quote:

Why don't you ask The Lord to help you understand. It's very easy for me, but I have the Holy Spirit. I know, I know, I sound like I am full of myself but I am telling you the truth. What do I do? Lie? I am telling you that if you will accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, He will help you understand His word through His Holy Spirit.

Ive been touched by His Noodly Appendage so i know how a religious enlightenment feels like. And considering how wise the FSM is we, its followers are blessed by its wisdom the FSM is one true God and that the way to salvation is to be pirates. Arrr

quote:

This verse is a true statement. The natural man is the unsaved man. The man who doesn't have the Holy Spirit inside Him to help Him understand God's word. Man with all of my heart, I am telling you that this is what you need. You need a genuine relationship with God. Yes it is possible to know the true God personally. Do Christians understand everything that the bible says? No. We have to learn it as well. But we understand it much better than someone who is not saved. I have heard many, many people say that they could not understand the bible before they were saved and after they got saved, they saw the bible in a totally different way. That's because they are guided by the Spirit of God. They aren't lying. I know that because of my own experience with God. The God of the bible is the real God. He is the true God, and You can really know Him. What have you got to lose if I am wrong? Pray that prayer in this original thread directly to God, believe it with all of your strength and watch what happens. He will change the way you see things, not just in the bible, but about everything. You will understand things the way that God intended for you to. Christians are not perfect, we are just forgiven, not because of what we did, but because of what God did. Try it now and let me know what happens.

You say you have to lear the bible as well (quote rude of god to not just make you his faithful belivers understand this from the wery beggining, would make everything much easier). I can see that, i can also see that on average you lear it quite poorly and that its sad that non belivers know it better than you. If it makes you sleep better at night then by all means belive that you have a better understanding of the bible, god and the world then us lost souls and that you are better than anyone else but dont wonder why people dont take you seriously any more.

Oh, and it doesnt matter if I am wrong or if you are wrong, either way i have nothing to lose.






Ive been dangerously close to an enourism since my first drunken rant.

___________________

___________________
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quote:

Originally posted by xfrodobagginsx The problem with you is that you are fixated on one or two verses and won't even consider the dozens of other verses that deal with this issue.

Are you trying to be funny? The core of your argument comes from Galatians and Romans: two books written by the same person, each expounding a common theology that you don't quite seem to understand. I have explained to you what Paul's wider theology was and how those verses fit into that wider theology. You did not address any of these arguments, so I can only presume that you agree with me when I say that Paul does not, in his letters, advocate the abolition of the old Jewish laws. If you do not agree with me then show me where you think I've gone wrong in my analysis, because otherwise I have no choice but to assume from your silence that I am right and you are wrong.

In defending my position, on the other hand, I have quoted from nine different books (Matthew, Luke, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, James, 1 Peter, 2 John, Revelation) written by seven different authors, in each case presenting passages which, in context (you're welcome to check and prove me wrong!), indicate that the author believed, without qualification, that at least some elements of the old law still apply, even with the death of Jesus. You haven't adequately addressed even one of these passages yet, let alone all of them - so are you going to "consider" these "dozens of other verses" written by a wide spectrum of early Christians, or are you going to content yourself with abiding only by the questionable interpretation of the words of just one author?

quote:

If you look at the verses I showed you, and if you believe that the bible doesn't contradict it's self, you will see it. I can't make you understand something that is Spritual if you aren't willing to believe it.

I'm willing to believe it, frodo, but that comes after proof, not before.

quote:

Do you believe that the bible contains contradictions?

Why don't you tell me:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mod...radictions.html

quote:

Why don't you ask The Lord to help you understand. It's very easy for me, but I have the Holy Spirit. I know, I know, I sound like I am full of myself but I am telling you the truth. What do I do? Lie? I am telling you that if you will accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, He will help you understand His word through His Holy Spirit.

How do you know that the Holy Spirit isn't just the devil is disguise, causing you to misread the Bible so that you end up in hell? Isn't that what the devil does? Lies to people and adversely affects their judgement? Wouldn't it be a safer bet to read the words as they are without relying on gut instincts that can so easily be led astray?

quote:

Pray that prayer in this original thread directly to God, believe it with all of your strength and watch what happens. He will change the way you see things, not just in the bible, but about everything.

Tell you what - I'll start praying to the holy spirit when you start using reason. Afterall, "what have you got to lose"?

___________________
http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Renegade on Oct-12-2006 at 16:52

Ok look, I HAVE gone over the verses and I have explained them. Just because I haven't given the answer that you want or expect doesn't mean that I haven't done so. Because you don't understand why I see it the way I do doesn't mean that I haven't done so. I have explained the verses and what they mean. It is up to you to decide if you want to believe that you need Jesus Christ in order to take you to heaven or if you are going to depend on yourself and your good works. The choice is yours.

The peculiar thing is, if I am wrong, why is it so scary to you to give Him a try? If what I have said is a lie, why not give Him a try?
Could it be that you are afraid that it might be true and you don't want it to be so?

quote:

Originally posted by Wicked Neo

So what are yea tryin' to say?

inb4dalock....

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by xfrodobagginsx Ok look, I HAVE gone over the verses and I have explained them.

No, you didn't. You haven't explained anything at all, hence your error here. You only quoted passages of the Bible thinking that they supported your notion of rejection of old Jewish laws WHEN IN FACT as Renegade easily pointed out that not only were your passages quoted out of context, but also had a healthy handful of other passages supporting the notion that old Jewish laws are to be upheld.

So will you actually try to answer these points or shall we assume you concede his points and will be exiting soon?

quote:

Just because I haven't given the answer that you want or expect doesn't mean that I haven't done so.

That made absolutely no sense. Nevertheless, you didn't answer anything at all. We only expect you to answer those questions DIRECTLY posed to you and the passages you cited. You have dodged those questions miserably thus far. Please answer them, and DO NOT bear false witness against Renegade again. This answer you have given is patently false and I believe you truly know it as such. As a consequence, I do hope you pray to your God for forgiveness of such a grave sin.

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Because you don't understand why I see it the way I do doesn't mean that I haven't done so.

Uhh, well considering you haven't even attempted to help us "see the way you see it" by answering his questions directly doesn't really help your cause at all, once again.

quote:

I have explained the verses and what they mean.

And yet you were shown to have been incorrect in your assessment of those verses. Please do not make any more false statements. It's making Jesus weep.

quote:

It is up to you to decide if you want to believe that you need Jesus Christ in order to take you to heaven or if you are going to depend on yourself and your good works. The choice is yours.

Already made it long ago, and have been at peace ever since. Now could you make your choice and decide to answer the questions and points posed at your incorrect assessment on the Bible citations, please?

quote:

The peculiar thing is, if I am wrong, why is it so scary to you to give Him a try? If what I have said is a lie, why not give Him a try? Could it be that you are afraid that it might be true and you don't want it to be so?

Why Dr. Pascal, it sure is fancy to see you here again!:

[[ LINK REMOVED ]]



You don't come around here too often, do you? You really need to work on your debating skills, sir.

___________________
Whence September dusk grows crisper still,
with leaves all crimson conquered,
I yearn to shout,
and dance about,
and stick pickles in my honker...

Since this isnt going anywhere can i post a funny picture ?

___________________
Poetry>Byron//Blog>TheMean

quote:

Orbax At that point you kind of crossed the rubicon and you might as well lay siege to Rome