quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Funny thing is he basically proves the point we made without even realizing it. The U.S. is a sovereign nation that acts in its own interest (though quite often in the best interest of the world). In the one shining case that he can bring up (Iraq), he is steamed that the U.S. did not bow to the wishes of however many other nations were opposed to U.S. action, even though they all have their own distinct agendas.

Now tell me the positive things that this American military invasion has achieved for Iraq. People's testimonies, the country's in ruins, violence is on the rise, dozens of Iraqis die every day. I see their vision ... Thousands of refugees in Syria, Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia ...

Thats what me and most European countries were against, because we knew this war was going to become another Vietnam. And we all know what happened in Vietnam.

It was actually USA who was in the way of European plan to fix the Iraqi problem in 1990s. While they pursued the embargo to the fullest, countries like Turkey which were clearly buying the oil went unpunished, being American ally.

It was obvious in the early years that the embargo is not doing anything good at all. Has Cuban embargo achieved anything good for the USA?

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Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium As for your argument about USA invading Iraq for weapons of mass destruction, its bull. USA currently possesses and develops these WMD. Same with its allies. Seems not fair that while the rest of the world is not allowed to develop these weapons, the West is allowed to keep them and develop new ones!

By the way, I'd like to point out that I've never, ever stated that the US invaded Iraq over WMDs. I did say that it didn't help that Saddam kicked out the inspectors. When Colin Powell got in front of the UN, it was right before I moved to NYC and started my job, and I sat at home watching the different news stations lead up to the war. I knew then most of what he said was bullshit.

I think the main point that you're missing out is the rationale of why small countries can't develop but big countries can. Small countries, as shown by Iraq, can be toppled easily by a large country, but more importantly, by another small country, and when they are, it's scary to think of gets them. The other option is that they'll get desperate and sell them off to the highest bidder, which is a very real concern considering the impoverished state of NK.

That's why alliances are so important, because there are a handful to a dozen larger countries that have the weapons, and none of them want to upset the balances of power either. I'd say the US, China, France, Russia, and the UK were enough countries to have nuclear weapons (I wasn't thrilled when India and Pakistan got them, either, btw). Those 5 countries have enough disagreements with each other that they give a fair selection of sides that you'd want to get in close with.

I mean, do you really support nuclear proliferation all over the world, where every war that erupts, whether it's in a democracy, dictatorship, theocracy, etc. has the ability to wipe out half of civilization? Even if attacked, NK still doesn't have the ability to do that much damage (in comparison to a 6 billion world population), but with more development, they could eventually get there, and that, given the diplomatic style exhibited by Kim Jong Il, is a scary, scary thought.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Has Cuban embargo achieved anything good for the USA?

No, and I wouldn't mind if they ended that, too. It's not like if we end it, Americans will suddenly buy so many cigars, sugar, and rum that Cuba will become a national power.

We'll see what happens when Castro dies soon. Hopefully things will change around.

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Now tell me the positive things that this American military invasion has achieved for Iraq. People's testimonies, the country's in ruins, violence is on the rise, dozens of Iraqis die every day. I see their vision ... Thousands of refugees in Syria, Jordan, Iran, Saudi Arabia ...

I don't think the real history has been written yet. I'm sure there were plenty of people in Germany who thought WWI was a bad idea when they experienced hyperinflation and a ruined economy up until 1923 (4 years after WWI ended). We want to close the books and comment on this every day, but the truth is that the ultimate benefits (if you're optimistic like I am) will take years to manifest. It's just the reality of major change.

quote:

Thats what me and most European countries were against, because we knew this war was going to become another Vietnam. And we all know what happened in Vietnam.

Who are we? This war is like Vietnam how? Because there are an equal if not greater number of counterpoints that indicate that this is nothing compared to Vietnam. It's like comparing apples and vacuum cleaners. Don't speak for any "we" unless you can get "we" to jump on board and actually clarify who "we" are. Otherwise your tactic is to make your case sound stronger by claiming a bunch of non-existent people believe the same thing as you.

quote:

It was obvious in the early years that the embargo is not doing anything good at all. Has Cuban embargo achieved anything good for the USA?

Who knows. You don't have an alternate scenario with defined outcomes to make any case. Pure specuation on your part. Maybe, maybe not.

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy No, and I wouldn't mind if they ended that, too. It's not like if we end it, Americans will suddenly buy so many cigars, sugar, and rum that Cuba will become a national power. We'll see what happens when Castro dies soon. Hopefully things will change around.

lol--there you go again!

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Who are we? This war is like Vietnam how? Because there are an equal if not greater number of counterpoints that indicate that this is nothing compared to Vietnam. It's like comparing apples and vacuum cleaners. Don't speak for any "we" unless you can get "we" to jump on board and actually clarify who "we" are. Otherwise your tactic is to make your case sound stronger by claiming a bunch of non-existent people believe the same thing as you.

I think he meant the end result. My dad is a Vietnam vet, 2 tours, considered a 3rd, and he's been against the Iraq war all the way because he expected the outcome to be like in Vietnam. I think the main simlilarity is the inability to distinguish who to kill before it's too late. I think that's why we're seeing similar atrocities committed in both wars (torture, murder of civilians, etc.).

I'm actually not really sure what to think about Iraq now. I want to bring the troops home, both because I want them to be safe and because I want get out of what we shouldn't have started in the beginning, but I'm not sure we can, now. We'd definitely need to swallow our pride (which isn't happening with this govt.), and get other world powers involved in the creation of a unified Iraq, or the option I think will more likely be successful, split the countries up. Hell, even let Iran back the one side and let us back the other one. At least there'll be borders to curb the violence.

Lastly, why the hell are we discussing Iraq in the NK thread?

___________________
"Go back to bed america your government is in control
Here's American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it,
Watch these picturary retards bang their fuckin' skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom,
Here you go America you are free to do as we tell you
We want your soul
Your cash, your house, your phone, your cash, your house, your life" -Adam Freeland - We Want Your Soul

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Lastly, why the hell are we discussing Iraq in the NK thread?

Good question considering how many times you've pointed out that this is a NK thread. I guess I couldn't help but to respond despite it being inappropriate in this thread.




side note--interesting--my dad was also in Vietnam (Army).

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy I understand why you think we would though, because you're paranoia is probably on the same level as Kim Jong Il's, as shown by all your CT arguments.

Shocked we are not, no.
What's sad is that it's almost expected.

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium You do the math with NK.

What math?

The only math here to this lofty connection you make between NK and Iran; two entirely different situations...

___________________
"...End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path...one that we all must take.
The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all change to silver glass...and then you see it...
...white shores...and beyond...the far green country under a swift sunrise."

Interested in disarmament and anti-ploriforation? Give me a freakin' break . An even deadlier arms race is potentially about to begin, thanks to you know who:

quote:

US Casts Lone Vote Against Limiting Space Arms Race In other news from the UN, the Bush administration voted Wednesday against a General Assembly resolution to prevent an arms race in outer space. The US was alone in its opposition. 166 countries voted to support the measure, while Israel abstained. The vote comes on the heels of this month’s release of the administration’s new National Space Policy that rejects future arms-control agreements and asserts the right to deny access to anyone “hostile to U.S. interests."

Source: Democracy Now

Is there no limit to goverment hypocrisy, ours in particularl?

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z Interested in disarmament and anti-ploriforation? Give me a freakin' break . An even deadlier arms race is potentially about to begin, thanks to you know who: Source: Democracy Now Is there no limit to goverment hypocrisy, ours in particularl?

For once I agree with you. I thought this was about the dumbest idea ever. Though it begs the question--how many countries have the capability to actually do anything meaningful in space?

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka For once I agree with you. I thought this was about the dumbest idea ever.

Wow, you caught me completely by surprise there .

quote:

Originally posted by Shakka Though it begs the question--how many countries have the capability to actually do anything meaningful in space?

That's a pretty strange question. We have more than enough problems on this planet that are hardly being addressed in any meanigful way, even in our own country. I don't see how we (i.e. anyone on this planet) could possibly do anything meanigful in space considering what a f'n mess this planet is. And I'm not talking about the enviornment here (although our reckless and dangerous practices destoying the ecological system certainly needs to be addressed).

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller