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Originally posted by EvilTree Yes, fascism did not last long enough in Germany due to WW2 to see whether it'd have survived a long time, but there is always a trend for authoritarianism to rise, especially when there is discontent due to poor economy. There's always a way for a dictator to hold onto power. (See Tito, Castro, Kim Il Sung/Kim Jong Il)

oh, absolutely. and im not suggesting it will happen overnight, but it will happen. societies will need to embrace free market economics to avoid falling further and further behind, and the populace will know they are falling behind because of all the images the west saturate the world with every second of every day.

people will want their big screen tvs, pop music, reebok shoes, fast food outlets, freedom of vocation etc. and to get these things they will need a less restrictive society. self interest will supplant oppression at the end of the day.

you can already see it in china now. there is a growing capitalist class, and just as the growing industrial class took down the monarchies of europe, so will the new industrialists take town the dictatorships in asia and elsewhere.

people will be driven towards affluent economic structures, and you cannot keep the lid on a growing class that has power like the new capitalists are developing.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh, absolutely. and im not suggesting it will happen overnight, but it will happen. societies will need to embrace free market economics to avoid falling further and further behind, and the populace will know they are falling behind because of all the images the west saturate the world with every second of every day. people will want their big screen tvs, pop music, reebok shoes, fast food outlets, freedom of vocation etc. and to get these things they will need a less restrictive society. self interest will supplant oppression at the end of the day. you can already see it in china now. there is a growing capitalist class, and just as the growing industrial class took down the monarchies of europe, so will the new industrialists take town the dictatorships in asia and elsewhere. people will be driven towards affluent economic structures, and you cannot keep the lid on a growing class that has power like the new capitalists are developing.

hmmm... I'm not sure about adopting the western culture thing.

yes, people want to be rich (who wouldn't?)

but a lot of people do not want their culture to be that of beverley hills 90210 or jackass or whatever 'decadent' western society

I think many cultures will incorporate western ideas (just like east asia did) but a lot of cultures will define 'modernity' in their own way, esp. with those with a hard on hatred of anything west.

strong cultural identity is what a lot of people identify themselves with. to assume that western culture will 'triumph' over that of other cultures IMO is not correct

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Originally posted by chinamon not true. i say "ugh" but i am a tranny.

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Originally posted by kotsy lol colour me retarded

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Originally posted by EvilTree hmmm... I'm not sure about adopting the western culture thing. yes, people want to be rich (who wouldn't?) but a lot of people do not want their culture to be that of beverley hills 90210 or jackass or whatever 'decadent' western society I think many cultures will incorporate western ideas (just like east asia did) but a lot of cultures will define 'modernity' in their own way, esp. with those with a hard on hatred of anything west. strong cultural identity is what a lot of people identify themselves with. to assume that western culture will 'triumph' over that of other cultures IMO is not correct

im not saying there will be a cultural revolution, moreso when it comes to legal frameworks, which will come about through citizen CHOICE. the capitalist class will want a say in how their capital is run, the student class will want unfettered access to the internet and other forms of media, workers will want the right to organise to protect their rights under the capitalist class.

western culture is already "triumphing" over local content, be it through music, movies, blogs, or just the desire for freedom of expression away from their oppressive government. it won't necessarily replace tradition, but it WILL replace ideology that says "you cannot listen to music style X" or "you cannot go to the mall without a male relative".

once pandora's box is opened it can never be closed again. information and freedom to choose which elements of other cultures to enjoy will ultimately kill any dictatorial regime that has an advanced economy. and a lucrative, advanced economy is the goal of most societies.

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KHARTOUM, Sudan - A British teacher in Sudan was convicted Thursday of inciting religious hatred for letting her pupils name a teddy bear Muhammad, and she was sentenced to 15 days in prison and deportation from the country, one of her lawyers said.

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Gillian Gibbons was arrested Sunday after complaints to the Education Ministry that she had insulted Prophet Muhammad, the most revered figure in Islam, by applying his name to a toy animal.

The maximum penalty in the case, which has attracted worldwide attention, was 40 lashes and six months in prison.

"The judge found Gillian Gibbons guilty and sentenced her to 15 days jail and deportation," said Ali Mohammed Hajab, a member of her defense team.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN people will want their big screen tvs, pop music, reebok shoes, fast food outlets, freedom of vocation etc. and to get these things they will need a less restrictive society. self interest will supplant oppression at the end of the day.

You make it seem like materialism, greed, gluttony, and sexual exploitation (vis-a-vis music videos that go along with your suggestion of pop music) are part of your universal principles! The reason why that is accepted in western society is because the majority of people want that. There are severl families I know in this city that are not like that at all! The same way, the majority of the people in those countries where you think people are being oppressed, don't want that lifestyle. Anyway, I don't have any polls or anything to quote from (you asked me about my use of the term: majority in the PDD forum) but just using common sense.

When I was living in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia as a kid, I recall the adults expressing disgust with what they were seeing on satellite TV, and how happy they were that the moral fibre of the country was still intact (from a theological perspective). Of course, this is at the cost of the few people who violate the rules because they want out.

For some reason, I'm reminded of "arranged marriages" right now because that's another VERY well-intentioned and well-articulated custom in Muslim countries (not a law) however is completely misunderstood in the west. Reason I thought of it is because of how the lifestyle choices that people make in the east are being questioned here.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN once pandora's box is opened it can never be closed again. information and freedom to choose which elements of other cultures to enjoy will ultimately kill any dictatorial regime that has an advanced economy. and a lucrative, advanced economy is the goal of most societies.

ok, Morpheus!

Last edited by on Nov-29-2007 at 19:30

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Originally posted by fayraree You make it seem like materialism, greed, gluttony, and sexual exploitation (vis-a-vis music videos that go along with your suggestion of pop music) are part of your universal principles! The reason why that is accepted in western society is because the majority of people want that. There are severl families I know in this city that are not like that at all! The same way, the majority of the people in those countries where you think people are being oppressed, don't want that lifestyle. Anyway, I don't have any polls or anything to quote from (you asked me about my use of the term: majority in the PDD forum) but just using common sense. When I was living in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia as a kid, I recall the adults expressing disgust with what they were seeing on satellite TV, and how happy they were that the moral fibre of the country was still intact (from a theological perspective). Of course, this is at the cost of the few people who violate the rules because they want out. For some reason, I'm reminded of "arranged marriages" right now because that's another VERY well-intentioned and well-articulated custom in Muslim countries (not a law) however is completely misunderstood in the west. Reason I thought of it is because of how the lifestyle choices that people make in the east are being questioned here.

so they don't want our advances in economic society, but they're more than happy to make use of our technologies to blow civilians apart. gotcha.

if people do not want those lifestyles, why are western goods, movies, television, internet, satellites, food chains etc popping up throughout the middle east? its economic DEMOCRACY at work. are you going to forbid those from choosing these things for themselves?

im sure that the women of saudi are much happier being lashed for being raped, rather than having access to rape crisis health centres.

look at iran; an older despotic fundamentalist regime terrorising a young generation that wants freedom of expression and the right to (shock horror!) interact with the opposite sex without the police monitoring their activities.

it WILL happen. it is already happening.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN im sure that the women of saudi are much happier being lashed for being raped

I want to engage in rational discourse with you, but why do you keep making ridiculous comments like that? NO POLITICAL SYSTEM ON THIS PLANET, I don't care if it's Al-Qaeda or WHO, would lash a woman for the reason alone that she was violated against her will. This is nonsense and I tried to refocus the discussion on the PDD several times when people were letting their attention slip.

Anyway, I'm tired of correcting this point, because it seems that such comments are fueled with vindiction and it also skews other people's perceptions and opinions of the issue, making all other aspects of the discussion irrelevant.

And just because you're too lazy to actually look it up (or you could never imagine a Muslim country having such facilities), here's a link to the Support Services offerred at the King Faisal Hospital in Riyadh. "Self-help and emotional support to patients and families" covers rape victims. Thanks for coming out.

http://bportal.kfshrc.edu.sa/wps/po.../Other+Services

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Originally posted by fayraree I want to engage in rational discourse with you, but why do you keep making ridiculous comments like that? NO POLITICAL SYSTEM ON THIS PLANET, I don't care if it's Al-Qaeda or WHO, would lash a woman for the reason alone that she was violated against her will. This is nonsense and I tried to refocus the discussion on the PDD several times when people were letting their attention slip. Anyway, I'm tired of correcting this point, because it seems that such comments are fueled with vindiction and it also skews other people's perceptions and opinions of the issue, making all other aspects of the discussion irrelevant. And just because you're too lazy to actually look it up (or you could never imagine a Muslim country having such facilities), here's a link to the Support Services offerred at the King Faisal Hospital in Riyadh. "Self-help and emotional support to patients and families" covers rape victims. Thanks for coming out. http://bportal.kfshrc.edu.sa/wps/po.../Other+Services

yeah yeah, i know it wasn't punishment for being raped. but punishment for supposed adultery is almost as bad.

oh, she had access to the support services at the hospital from her jail cell?

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The funny thing is that some people consider political and social freedoms more important than anything else, even more important than so-called "moral fiber." If you're in the U.S., you can dress like a slut and have sex with tons of people. Or you can wear very modest clothes and wait until marriage to have sex.

The point is that either option is available.

This contrasts with backward places like Saudi that favor the method of beating and kicking their citizens into "moral purity."

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles moral fibre

Corrected

Again, you understimate the will of the citizens to be pure on their own, which is why I pointed out that you can find conservative people in North America, too (not extremists, but what I was referring to above).

Just because the country has strict laws, doesn't mean God isn't going to judge each individual independently. That fear alone drives the lawfulness in these countries. (and of course, now I have left the scope of the argument for most of you on here )

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Originally posted by fayraree Corrected Again, you understimate the will of the citizens to be pure on their own,

if citizens have a will to be pure on their own, why do they need laws to enforce morality?

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