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Originally posted by RJT Again, believe what you want to - but at the end of the day I don't think the "scientists" and the "theists" are fundamentally all that far from one another, and think it's people who do that are the cause of the hatred and evil that arise from either.

Which is the most concise way of saying what I've been saying (yeah I know I'm not that good at being concise, don't have to be reminded of that).

To me, Rich and pkcRAISTLIN are no different than those chumps that picketed that soldier's funeral with hate about how God is punishing the U.S. country for its evils. I just don't understand why you two are so adamant about proving yourself correct over an internet forum.

This is to all the "intelligent atheists" that use the internet to argue against religion: Get a life and stop being so self-conscious about what you believe in that you have to pick fights with people and then copy/paste exerts from books/internet sites just to have some deluded image of yourself as being an intellectual.

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Originally posted by RJT What matters is that my opinion on matters of both science and faith don't push me to tell me how wrong you, or anyone else is - especially about claims that simply cannot be proven (i.e. the existence, or lack thereof, of a "god" of any sort).

It's not even about proving how everything was created. It's about being able to give a rational explanation for everything you think, say and do. If you can't do that, you are by definition a madman. And no, beginning your explanation with "well, some dude 2000 years ago..." is not a rational explanation.

You wouldn't accept "because God said so" to an everyday question, so why should this idiotic behaviour be tolerated when the welfare of our society is at stake?

The problem is you view religion and spirituality solely in the specific, in situations you easily identify as "insane" - rather than as any sort of abstraction. You make rationality and spirituality mutually exclusive right off the bat, removing any chance anyone would have to posit an alternate view before they even have the chance.

But again, I'm really not going to bother to sit here and flesh this out with people clearly committed to a specific perspective on reality. You're going to believe what you're going to believe, and it would be foolish and rude of me to believe I could or should ever try to change that.

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last minute disco dot net

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Originally posted by RJT Again, believe what you want to - but at the end of the day I don't think the "scientists" and the "theists" are fundamentally all that far from one another, and think it's people who do that are the cause of the hatred and evil that arise from either.

IF you can clearly define what God is, and if there was decent evidence I might decide to believe in it. I'm not above good evidence.

Everybody seems to have their own definition or description of what or who God is. If the theists can't even agree on who or what God is, than how could you successful evaluate any sort of evidence to his or its existence? If you want pick a definition and argue it, then I will read it.

I can understand why after years of listening to rebuttals from theist, atheist get tired of the same old logical fallacies, and the theists who have no idea what a logical fallacy is.

What I don't like about religion or any of the new age junkie science is that it does not promote rational thinking. I want people to be able to have intelligent conversations that aren't immediately shut down by an irrational belief. I am grateful that there were extraordinary people that did NOT listen to what the church had to say about the universe, and instead ventured on their own journey for the truth which has lead us to an age where we can enjoy the fruits of technology.

A particle that acts like a wave, blasphemy!

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Originally posted by dj_alfi change your avatar for fucks sake.

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Originally posted by Beatflux What would expect when there aren't any good arguments from theists?

There are pleanty of good arguments from both sides. Normally, I'm the one on these boards making them on the theist's behalf (you can talk to pkc about this... he's pretty hard core on the athiesm front and even he sees the rationality in my arguents). The problem isn't a scarcity of good arguments, rather, it's a scarcity of good listeners.





I'm pretty proud that I've been able to just sit back and watch this one.

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Originally posted by RickyM you're just a shit version of Moral Hazard. At least he knows what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN lol, i love it when moral feels the need to lay the smack down

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Originally posted by RJT The problem is you view religion and spirituality solely in the specific, in situations you easily identify as "insane"

What kind of action/thought would you describe as insane?

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles That's just not true. One word: nationalism.

I agree. I don't believe for a second that it takes religion to make good people do evil things, and anyway, I don't think there are good and bad people, I think everyone has a bit of both and its just a matter of how you rationalize your actions and which way you swing. Religion just provides a convenient cover, an excuse, to do bad in the name of a supposed good, much like the "War On Terror" allows us to torture people...

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by Spirit5 So if MOST things are created, then how can something just "poof" appear rather than have somehow being designed by something (not saying it's God, but it's got to be something out there) not just appear out of nowhere.

It's not true, as far as we can tell, that "most things" come about through creation. The vast majority of the universe that we've observed consists of hydrogen and helium bumping around with absolutely no sign of consciousness or purpose.

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Originally posted by distant What kind of action/thought would you describe as insane?

You misunderstand. I see you as writing off anyone with any theistic beliefs as insane based on a handful of high profile examples that are hardly indicative of your average person of faith.

If you've read Kierkegaard or his opinion of faith necessitating the absurd, it's fairly indicative of my feelings on the matter; I don't understand blind faith at all, it's absurd and cannot be reconciled by rationality, but, to a degree, and in some "lunatic" sense, I admire it, yet fully admit that I don't think I can ever understand why.

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last minute disco dot net

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Originally posted by RJT You misunderstand. I see you as writing off anyone with any theistic beliefs as insane based on a handful of high profile examples that are hardly indicative of your average person of faith. If you've read Kierkegaard or his opinion of faith necessitating the absurd, it's fairly indicative of my feelings on the matter; I don't understand blind faith at all, it's absurd and cannot be reconciled by rationality, but, to a degree, and in some "lunatic" sense, I admire it, yet fully admit that I don't think I can ever understand why.

It's also interesting to note that believing in something does not = being religious. My mom is not religious but she does believe in some type of higher power or God.

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Originally posted by ******** Seplling don't demonstrate intelligence and educatoin - knowing does.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles It's not true, as far as we can tell, that "most things" come about through creation. The vast majority of the universe that we've observed consists of hydrogen and helium bumping around with absolutely no sign of consciousness or purpose.

But they had to come from somewhere? They just don't "appear" out of nowhere...many things in the universe are created by processes and cause and effect...they aren't just purposeless things that don't serve any purpose. The Universe didn't just appear..."poof" it's there, and the Universe isn't just some stagnant thing, it's evolving, changing....stars are born, they die, galaxies are born, they die...things don't last "forever" and if things die, then they would have had to been "born" and birth does imply that they would have to have come from somewhere. Where? we don't know. That's what scientists are tying to find out, just as religious people are too...asking why?

Things don't need "consciousness" to have purpose or have a reason why they are there. Many elements exists in our planet that serves purposes...and we often create things by them that serve purposes..so we are CREATORS, we use what we can find to CREATE things, Intelligence often results in the greater ability to create..the more intelligent (higher brain compacity) an organism has, the more likely it is to create. Certaintly, in this vast universe..we are not the most intelligent species..that's nieve to think that because we are flawed and not as intelligent as we surmise.