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Originally posted by Blake Enen if Clinton or Obama took office I wonder how long either of them would last..

Honestly forget about names and everything just get someone in the office who actually care about issues at home then issues abroad.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatniko Lol take that back! edit: I have a very, very, very low opinion of Joe Lieberman. But I do want to take the bait and ask where the deep-seated hatred of Hillary comes from.

Double standards for the most part - the obvious nitpick issue is the war in Iraq, but the one that matters far, far more to me is the censorship issue. In particular, Hillary is another democrat who feels compelled to take on the video game industry because it's the one area she feels even most democrats won't fault her for attacking. At the end of the day she's still all for fascist practices when it comes to censoring art, and I think once you start down that road it's a slippery slope.

If I didn't have to go to class right now I'd love to actually put down on paper (or internets) all the reasons I can't stand Hillary - I think it might be fun!

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last minute disco dot net

Bump because I know Jeff is reading the forums right now

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last minute disco dot net

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Originally posted by RJT Bump because I know Jeff is reading the forums right now

Lol, I am indeed.

I am no Hillary fan, so I can understand your complaints against her. But to me things are relative, and she is a better option than some of the other candidates running. A friend of mine is a Hillary fan, and he pointed out that despite her short-comings on a few issues, she is still for wider access to quality education and higher wages for public school teachers in disadvantaged areas; wider health care coverage for average Americans; a more diplomatic foreign policy (though it can be argued not diplomatic enough); preservation of freedom of choice on moral issues (including full equality of benefits to civil unions); getting assault weapons off the streets and strengthening the background check system; fiscal responsibility and a balancing of the budget; reinforcing the Consumer Product Safety Commission (protecting consumers from businesses that put costs before safety); focus on treatment and not incarceration for first-time drug offenders; move toward more energy efficiency and conservation, and less foreign oil dependency;

Anyway, I could go on about things that I think Hillary is good on, but the fact is it is of course a personal choice. I won't vote for her in a Primary, but I don't think she warrants demonification either.

The censorship issue is one I honestly don't know much about - but I can see how a moderate Dem would probably not be a fan of GTA, so I can believe it.

As for Iraq... well she's a load better than this Administration, as well as most of the GOPers running. She hasn't apologized for her vote in 2002, but she has tacitly acknowledged it was a mistake, and I think she's going to be leaning hard on folks like Joe Biden to actually implement an Iraq policy if elected, and I don't mind that at all.

My biggest complaint about Hillary is her vote for the Lieberman-Kyl amendment on Iran. Doesn't send us to war... but was a temporary step in that direction.

So yeah, my first choice is Obama, but if Hillary is the Dem nominee, I'll support her easily over any of the likely candidates coming from the GOP, most of whom actually do scare me.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatniko As for Iraq... well she's a load better than this Administration, as well as most of the GOPers running.

Well now - is that really saying all that much?



All jokes aside, you make a good point, but if it came down to me being an "issue" voter (which even the thought of makes me cringe), the censorship issue is the one that sticks in my craw the most and couple that with a general unease about her and I just can't get comfortable with the idea of her as our commander in chief (though would readily admit will certainly be at least relatively better than the current administration ).

So yeah, I don't know - I could go on for a while further about why she isn't for me, but as you said, it's a personal choice and as long as someone who's making theirs is well informed about the choices they're making (regardless of the particulars) I think we're far better off.

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look guys. hillary is the next best thing to communism. and we can't just come out in the general public and say "hey nation, we're communist now." - they ruined that back in the '60s. so we must infiltrate the communist agenda in the disguise of a 60 yr old ex-First Lady.

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Originally posted by RJT it's a personal choice and as long as someone who's making theirs is well informed about the choices they're making (regardless of the particulars) I think we're far better off.

Could not agree more. I think not knowing enough about the candidates in 2000 was what got us into this mess. People voted for Gore because he sounded boring... and well... we're in some tough spots we weren't in before.

I'm not much of an issue voter myself once it comes to the general election. In the primaries, I give my support primarily (lol) based on foreign policy (an overall view of how the candidate sees America's role in the world) and education. Hillary is good on education, but isn't the best on foreign policy, so I initially supported Biden and am now in the Obama camp since Joe's out. But as opposed to the sabre-rattling Giuliani, equivocating Romney, loon Paul, and creationist Huckabee, I would support Hillary without question. McCain is the only GOP candidate that would give me pause, so we shall see.

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Originally posted by denys envy look guys. hillary is the next best thing to communism. and we can't just come out in the general public and say "hey nation, we're communist now." - they ruined that back in the '60s. so we must infiltrate the communist agenda in the disguise of a 60 yr old ex-First Lady.

I know it's a joke, but I still don't understand how the most moderate Democrat in the race is the one who draws all the communism jokes.

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I guess it's just the thought of being forced into one camp or the other that makes me want to say "fuck off" to the entire thing, which is unfortunately about as counterproductive as voting for someone you hate.

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Originally posted by RJT I guess it's just the thought of being forced into one camp or the other that makes me want to say "fuck off" to the entire thing, which is unfortunately about as counterproductive as voting for someone you hate.

there, there. Come join the good guys.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatniko I know it's a joke, but I still don't understand how the most moderate Democrat in the race is the one who draws all the communism jokes.

jokes aside, we're the idiots who voted jesse ventura into office.
to be fair he wasn't as bad as i thought he would be when i woke up with a hangover the next morning and said to myself "HE FUCKING WON!?"