quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus LOL!!! u really kill me dud no seriously, this is funny.. because you are the guys who started the whole mess in the first place. Learn your history dud

the whole mess being WW2..? lol.. i seriously dont get u here

what i meant is that the whole US interferance is un-needed and all it does is rile up the palestinians etc etc.. if anyone should be mediating that argument it should be a neutral country with NO BIAS WHATSOEVER to any particular side.

in response to swamper's post: he has a serious point. although the US is labelled the land of the free, it has probably the most controlled television out of all of the G7 nations.. although on the outside it looks like its all politically open (having big rooms full of journalists receiving press releases etc) on the inside its very controlled. the way the british media has been handled over the last 50 years has been less publically open, but more control for the journalists. when the government want tomake a public announcement type thing they have a set few journalists (20 or so) in secret in a room that they give the information to, they are then free to blast the spokesperson with questions about everything and it can all get very heated. this wasnt common knowledge until a few months ago no-ne knew about it.. now the british government are wanting to have the more american approach to it, and the media is refusing because they know that it will mean more control over media.


tiesto14: yes the rage between pakistan and india has been going on for years, but can u sit there with a straight face and tell me that the events that have happened after sept 11th havent had any effect..?

if you ask anyone thats not american you will find out that the way bush has handled this whole thing has been a bit pointless. what have they gained..? nothing but misery for people who really dont need it i.e. the afghan people. have they got bin laden..? no. and they never wont because he probably never was in afghanistan anyway. the taliban took them on a wild goose chase and they fell for it.

and ste is not rude or obnoxious. he's just winding you up and u are rising to it. he is however speaking truth. europeans in general try to look on the bright side of things.. he was never mocking the attacks.. no-one in their right minds would ever do that because it was a terrible tradgedy.

im not flaming here, but to me it seems you take everything thats said about america or americans and think its directly aimed at you. its not. its aimed at your government and the nation generally. if someone said they thought tony blair was a cock-head, i wouldnt care. i would point out that he might be a cock-head but he's definatly the best leader we've had in office for 30 odd years. if someone said that our laws were shite i wouldnt act as if you were talking about my own thoughts and principles

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MUGGETS

i agree with ya tu-face..the attack on the us goverment is ok no probs in that...read my post and u will know what is meant by brits starting the problem.i try to explain to everyone that afghanistan had nothing to do with sept11 ben laden isnt related to taliban he doesnt give a fuck about afghanistan..so the attack was useless..

quote:

Originally posted by tranceaholic Second i dont get the bashing by the brits..is it just me or arent the brits the first people that expressed their condolences to the us after sept11 and were the first to attack afghanistan along with the us...is it just suckin up to the big dogg? is it just double standard?

yes, we were the first to offer our condolences. that is because we are plain friendly ffs it was a tradgedy.. you think we wouldnt have offered our condolences..? dont be silly like it or not the UK and the US are internationally best friends. we were the first to offer the US our support. im not disputing that fact. what i am disputing is the way the US has done things. if we didnt do them with you it would only create a riff that isnt needed under the circumstances.. we think before we act.. the US acts before it thinks. THAT part is common knowledge throughout the world (except in the US)

there is no double standards here, im not the one driving the planes over..

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MUGGETS

quote:

Originally posted by tu_face if you ask anyone thats not american you will find out that the way bush has handled this whole thing has been a bit pointless. what have they gained..? nothing but misery for people who really dont need it i.e. the afghan people. have they got bin laden..? no. and they never wont because he probably never was in afghanistan anyway. the taliban took them on a wild goose chase and they fell for it.

ARE U KIDDING MEEEEEE!!!!!!......the Afghan people have gained the most out of this entire situation...the children are allowed to got o school, the women are nolonger tortured...people have a say now.....

Did you know that the Taliban sometimes has their womens clitoris' removed so that they would not have desire for other men?...or that they would be beaten if they spoke out of order..maybe even killed...

The children of Afghanistan are now able to go to school and wear better cloths because of the U.S. efforts..we have sent millions in school supplies and clothing and even proffesors with strong Afghanistan backgrounds over there inordeer to teach the Afghanistan teachers proper skills, such as math and science...so that the children can learn and prosper...

this was NEVER allowed with the Tailban...children did not go to school...

so you are very much mistaken that the Afghan people have suffered more then they have gained...even the Afghanistan people are happy with the ridding of the Taliban...

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Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

quote:

dude if u know ur history..u will know that the brits promised the land to both the muslims and the jews to help it in world war I and so when they did..they bith moved to the land at the same time and the problems started..

Let me clear things up: I understand how Isreal was formed, and I understand that it was the UK who were the primary figures behind its creation. My point (if any) was simply that generalising in the fashion the Yeopus was before - ascribing the creation of Isreal to England as a whole and not just some people who lived there 50 years ago - makes no sense. It's like blaming the current generation of Germans for Nazism.

In fact, the Americans seem to be doing what Tiesto14 was originally complaining about : making harsh generalisations purely on nationality. I said in my earlier (long) post, that I understand that it is not the fault of the citizens of the US if the government makes a stupid decision, so I seperate the concepts. What Sir Winston and his small gang decided to do in 1947/1948 is entirely irrelevent to what we're talking about here, and ascribing the actions of a nation to all the citizens who inhabit it makes no sense at all.

quote:

I mean, for gods sake people, you are saying the USA is not all that, but then your government go on their hands and knees and beg the USA to do something about something. What, are you guys so helpess and powerless to solve problems on your own?

No, the point is we acknowledge the immense power that the US has, but we refrain from attributing this power to "greatness". As I said earlier, the power that America has now has absolutely nothing to do with how great it is, but rather because of the political ideals behind its creation 226 years ago (?) and the political unrest in Europe during the earlier parts of this century.

We come to the US "on our hands and knees" because the US holds a disproportionately large amount of the worlds resources, and has the greatest power and to facilitate foreign aid or a peace keeping mission. To use my previous analogy, someone cannot declare themself president and then winge when people ask him for help. If the US wishes to adopt such a powerful global stance, and inflict its political and economic ideolgies on everyone else, then it has to expect to give something back in return. No one's denying the sheer size and power of the US - but that's all the more reason for them to do more to assist the less fortunate or able around the globe.

quote:

I mean look at Kyoto. You wanted the USA to sign the protocol (which I don't think was bad, the bad part was not offering another plan). Ok so the USA didn't sign it. Why do you guys need the USA? Go organize the protocol and sign it yourselfs! Why didn't you? Because your governments discovered the protocol is not all that and the Americans were right.. it was a pretty dumb plan, we need better.

We need the signature of the US because they consume 25% of the worlds resources and thus, one can only assume, produce 25% of the world's pollution. And yes, all the other countries have signed it, and Bill Clinton (a worthy president) even signed on behalf of the US before Dubya came into power and pulled out of the entire treaty saying: "the American way of life will not be compromised". As in: we'll do what you want, the rest of you will just have to sit quietly and accept it. So far as I know, the Kyoto protocol is still going ahead, but I'm not sure what the US's stance is on the issue after all the uproar surrounding its pull-out.

quote:

But why do you go on saying Bush is dumb in "everything" he does because he does dumb things in one field or two. Sure not being an environmentalist is dumb. And sure he might be a greedy capatilist pig, but what the hell is wrong with the war effort?? If something is wrong it seems to me that he is to weak and not strong enough.

He's an ignorant red-neck. I've disagreed with virtually everything he's done. That whole "Axis-of-Evil" thing, was about as misguided a statement as any person in a position of power can make. It displays his ignorance and self-righteousness quite lucidly.

He's a twat, and how he got voted in is beyond me. He's going to have done a lot more damage than good by the time he's finished (hopefully by 2004).

quote:

is it just me or arent the brits the first people that expressed their condolences to the us after sept11 and were the first to attack afghanistan along with the us...is it just suckin up to the big dogg? is it just double standard?

Once again, a nation's people and a nation's government are two entirely different entities. Blair may be hell-bent on sucking up to Mr. Bush, but it doesn't mean the people are. It's important we all make this distinction otherwise this discussion is going to degenerate into basless generalisations and stereotypes, if it hasn't already reached this stage.

quote:

The attack on afghanistan was plain stupid..i mean terrorism was around for ages in afghanistan..if ben laden was hiding in another country no one would have given a fuck about afghanistan..

I wrote a long post (even by my standards) on this issue a while back in one of the Afghanistan threads, and I'm inclined to agree with you. I didn't have any moral opposition, necessarily, to the US government seeking out justice, but to launch an attack on Afghanistan was pointless and misguided for a number of reasons. I'm not going to into them now, but if people are interested in my views (as I'm sure you all are ) then I'd be happy to dig it out for you.

quote:

so wanna bash go ahead bash those political descisions but not everything about america needs to be bashed..

Exactly, that's what I'm trying to say. There's no sense generalising and "bashing" an entire country, because most of the time the public has little or no say in political decisions (going some way against the notion of democracy don't you think?). I disagree with a number of decisions the US has made, but I don't see it fit to blame the US citizens for actions they had no control over.

I hope I'm making myself clear.

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 ARE U KIDDING MEEEEEE!!!!!!......the Afghan people have gained the most out of this entire situation...the children are allowed to got o school, the women are nolonger tortured...people have a say now..... Did you know that the Taliban sometimes has their womens clitoris' removed so that they would not have desire for other men?...or that they would be beaten if they spoke out of order..maybe even killed... The children of Afghanistan are now able to go to school and wear better cloths because of the U.S. efforts..we have sent millions in school supplies and clothing and even proffesors with strong Afghanistan backgrounds over there inordeer to teach the Afghanistan teachers proper skills, such as math and science...so that the children can learn and prosper... this was NEVER allowed with the Tailban...children did not go to school... so you are very much mistaken that the Afghan people have suffered more then they have gained...even the Afghanistan people are happy with the ridding of the Taliban...

yes the taliban is gone, yes the women can walk around free and kids can go to school... but most the skoolz are probably empty shells of buildings anyway. the country was already in ruins before all the shit so i think its logical to think they didnt need more bombs and fighting. the taliban were nothing but cowardly all mouth no clout bastards. they could have been pushed out easily if enough pressure was applied in the right places.

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MUGGETS

im not gonna read all the crap since page 3. I now see that all you Europeans are gonna hate America no matter what. You use me as an example of why you hate America. So be it. You say America isnt the greatest and if we were Osama would dead. Thats the stupid shit that keeps your countries under out boot heel. You expect us to be able to do everything. Again, so be it. My conclusion in this thread is that Americans dislike of Europeans is well founded. The ignorance in here is palpable. Im not going to read this thread anymore because it drives home the fact that you guys are not going to have a legitimate conversation. You will use stupid, pointless connections like 9/11-Osama-and our greatness. It takes no intelligence to go after a sore spot on someone. So fuck you guys. Im not reading this anymore. Im sick of your Eurocentrism and how fucking great and advanced your thinking is on all this. Fuck Europe. When you guys become a super power let me know, and maybe then ill ask you for ideas on running our country, until then you are economically poor little pissants with shittily run countries. You think to advise us? YOU? dont be ridiculous. You are nothing, and you must always remember that.

again flame away because im not reading any more of your bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 ARE U KIDDING MEEEEEE!!!!!!......the Afghan people have gained the most out of this entire situation...the children are allowed to got o school, the women are nolonger tortured...people have a say now..... Did you know that the Taliban sometimes has their womens clitoris' removed so that they would not have desire for other men?...or that they would be beaten if they spoke out of order..maybe even killed... The children of Afghanistan are now able to go to school and wear better cloths because of the U.S. efforts..we have sent millions in school supplies and clothing and even proffesors with strong Afghanistan backgrounds over there inordeer to teach the Afghanistan teachers proper skills, such as math and science...so that the children can learn and prosper... this was NEVER allowed with the Tailban...children did not go to school... so you are very much mistaken that the Afghan people have suffered more then they have gained...even the Afghanistan people are happy with the ridding of the Taliban...

Incidentally, some Afghans have complained that now the country is in a state of chaos with robbers everywhere, whereas the Taliban had provided stability. Afghans have had it better after the attacks judged by western values, but not necessarily by their own.

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The Midnight Collective MySpace

^^^^^^^^^^^^Aww. He didn't answer my questions. Is this greatness?

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax The ignorance in here is palpable.

sorry i find that really funny...

read ur post. if any ignorance is in here its from the ppl who take offence to us critising the US as a whole. its also coming from those who think that everything you are seeing on US news is the entire story..

carry on dreaming

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MUGGETS

Ok two more points I am having with trouble on this thread now;

1) The Israel-British conneciton mis-understanding.
2) The fact that a nation's people have no 'influence' or will over their government. Particularly in a democracy.

my comments:

1: My point was that the British are the bloks who controled the Palestine Mandate after their victory in WWI over the turks. Back then they promised all the mandate to the Jews. Then WWII came about and the brits sold the Jews short to the Arabs to win their oil and support in that war. So their solution was as follow: A partition where Arab Palestine is 80% of the area and Jewish palestine is 20%. Now if they wanted that approach they should not have granted the Jewish state at all. But being the bloks they are they are they tried to appease both sides, while actually upsetting both. The good solution (it would not have stopped the fighting, but it would have made it livable and tolerable, and solvable by today) would have been to give the Jews the state west of the Jordan river, which would have actually been a defensable state, and the Arabs the rest of Palestine. this would have been about 70 Arab palestine, and 30 Jewish palestine in area. And both sides would have been happy with the skills of a good diplomat/mediator explaining this plan. But they didn't do that, and that is why we still have the conflict today, and probably for the next few years. The Brits did similar splunders with Greece and Turkey (hmm what do you know they are still hostile too), Cyprus, India and Pakistan.. and the list goes on. But bah I wrote to much about this.. I don't want to get into the mid-east discussion.. as we were bashing America here not Israel. If you guys care to discuss this, I welcome you to carry this onto another thread. But if not, then just take everything I said as the word of God and belive it. For arguments sake at least

2: Renegade and others would like us to belive that a Nation's leader does not repersent the Nations people, particularly in democracy. I will call this blantly idealistic and untrue. All though a Nation never repersents ALL its people, it repersents MOST its people. And if you would like to be blind to the fact most Americans like their president and support him (about 70% i think the last polls) then well go belive in your fantasy. And if you don't think most Israelis don't believe in Sharon and what he is doing, or that most the Brits don't support the policies of Blair, and that most the Palestinians wouldn't vote for Arafat in the next elections.. they you are blantaly naive.

It is much easier to say, you don't think like your government and it does not repersent you. but the truth is in the USA that is a minority. The Majority do. And the people are in charge of who repersents them, if they dont like them, then it is their duty to replace them. But they like them, or could care less and therefore they are there. My government repersents me fairly well, and I support it (the Israeli one). It is understable we don't agree 100% on issues, but this is a democracy it does not even need to be said.

So I just wanted to remind you, that indeed leaders/governments do repersent the majority will of the people of the nation. Only in extremly repressive regiemes is this not true.

Yoepus
"*cough*, oh look my cat wants to give you a present"