quote:

Originally posted by nefardec Modern science is just a hypothetical framework as well. The only difference is that Science just has more frames, it is the most complex illusion humanity has come up with yet, but still just the latest in a series of hypothetical frameworks.

I hear this a lot. But even the most vaguely understand theory such as quantum manages to provide the workings of a vast array of technology. It can reaffirm itself in the material world. Nobody ever made a computer out of phlogiston.

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I don't have a fear of dinosaurs, but I can think plenty of instances in my life where I have been afraid of something. All fear is imaginary.

But the things we fear aren't always.

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> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

smellyblack = chicken and lolling at system.

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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I hear this a lot. But even the most vaguely understand theory such as quantum manages to provide the workings of a vast array of technology. It can reaffirm itself in the material world. Nobody ever made a computer out of phlogiston.

i agree that it is extremely convincing and convenient. and i think that as a hypothetical framework it can lead to great things. like i said before, I do believe in science, but i just consider it to be one way of explaining things. It has a lot of language to build from. I tend to see science as the 'brute force' method, and intuition as the advanced method, but this is my personal bias.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J But the things we fear aren't always.

but fear isn't. that's the important part. the things we fear are just things, right?

i know what you are saying, and unfortunately we are still living in a collective consciousness where dinosaurs CAN really eat us. Like I said, i think as a whole, human destiny is to transcend such things and live purely in the mind, which could eliminate such things.

I personally don't have the ability or consciousness to avoid being eaten by a dinosaur anymore than you have the ability to pluck out a thought from the brain. We're just not that advanced yet.



One additional note of interest - I once read a book which discussed the evolution of the human brain, with particular interest in the evolution of human consciousness. The hypothesis put forth in this book was that at some point in time, humans were more automatic creatures just eating and shitting, then at some point in time, consciousness began to evolve in the human, even as late as the bronze age of homer. The book suggests that people of this time would understand this ego or inner monologue as the voice of god, and that our consciousness has been evolving rapidly ever since. It also equates language and consciousness.

Now you could read this as in support of a material consciousness, that the evolution of consciousness was a purely material process like the evolution of the forward-facing eye, emotions, etc.

This seems true with a limited view of what consciousness is, as I hinted at, I believe it is all-pervasive and that the human brain doesn't as much develop consciousness within its organ, but rather harnesses it like an eardrum might harness pressure changes.

Last edited by nefardec on Apr-02-2009 at 03:41

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Originally posted by nefardec nefardec = material is an instance of consciousness i do imply some form of objective reality. this is why i said before that system-j's everything is made of matter position is not that different than mine. one is the chicken, one is the egg

I don't believe he said that everything is made of matter. Rather, these things (i.e. thinking, consciousness, etc) is a manifestation of material interactions, which in turn does not necessitate them to be material.

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I don't have a fear of dinosaurs, but I can think plenty of instances in my life where I have been afraid of something. All fear is imaginary.

Depending on your definition of imaginary, this doesn't make too much sense. Fear is "imaginary" in the sense that it is not material. I would use the term "not physically real" rather than imaginary. Aside from this though, I don't know exactly what you are bringing home with this statement. I could go off on a rant telling you exactly why and when fear is induced and why a person exhibits fear. To me, this makes fear a very "real" thing.

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Originally posted by nefardec All fear is imaginary.

Can you please explain in concrete terms what you mean by that statement?

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quote:

Originally posted by nefardec but fear isn't. that's the important part. the things we fear are just things, right?

Well, for me fear is as much a series of events in your brain, a series of physical reactions, the release of a series of hormones. The essence, the feeling of fear, is not entirely cerebral. Far from it. Equally, it's possible to say a man eating tiger is just "a thing", but I doubt you'd be so philosophical when you're being eaten by one.

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Originally posted by habman6 I don't believe he said that everything is made of matter. Rather, these things (i.e. thinking, consciousness, etc) is a manifestation of material interactions, which in turn does not necessitate them to be material.

I don't think that our "life essence" if you like- the sensation of living- is just material but like you said I believe that sensation is the manifestation of material interactions and as such is not transcendental. To me the idea of a transcendental soul is old fashioned. I believe in sensation but why would we ever think that sensation could be divorced from the organs and stimulii that prompt it?

I have all sorts of problems with the idea of a soul. The idea it only takes a split condom to create one and then it's there forever. The question of training when it comes to stillborn babies or miscarriages. Does a day old baby spend all eternity with an infant's mind and consequently an infant's soul? If not, and if our training goes on after this existence, what is the point of this existence? I'd like to believe in the idea of a reincarnated soul, but there's far too many problems with that too. I just can't get behind the idea.

I can't see anything to make me believe in sensation divorced from the corporeal. Just can't see it.

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Mixes:
> Maximum Elevation [Progressive House]
> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
> Live @ Dance:Love:Hub London, 11.10.2025
> Higher Peaks [Progressive House]
> Dance:Love:Hub Afterparty (The Return) 23.11.24

Like these sets? Come see me play live at Kibosh in Manchester: https://www.instagram.com/kibosh.mcr/

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Well, for me fear is as much a series of events in your brain, a series of physical reactions, the release of a series of hormones. I have all sorts of problems with the idea of a soul. The idea it only takes a split condom to create one and then it's there forever

I also see such things as physical reactions, but what I am interested is the actual information, not the mechanism.

It's your conception of a soul that is the old fashioned, IMO.

I don't believe that individual things have separate souls. I think rather they are part of one pervasive consciousness, and it is a matter of being aware of that or not that allows an individual to snap out of his trance and transcend the material world. I don't think it's possible to become aware like this without science helping us tremendously (as I expect it will) or without being a saint lol.

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Originally posted by Domesticated Can you please explain in concrete terms what you mean by that statement?

I will try to explain: suppose someone has a fear that his girlfriend is cheating on him. whether or not his girlfriend is actually cheating on him, there is an imagination, an image in his mind which results in the release of certain chemicals in the body that create the bodily sensation/phenomenon of fear. It always comes down to that thought.

But where does his thought, his logic come from? To a degree it may be informed by memory or cultural expectations. I don't know that you could explain it away as some sort of pheromone...

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Originally posted by nefardec But where does his thought, his logic come from? To a degree it may be informed by memory or cultural expectations. I don't know that you could explain it away as some sort of pheromone...

I see what you're saying, but you could say the same about any human emotion/instinct. I think they all have a hard-wired material basis within the brain, i.e matter creates these emotions and feelings.

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quote:

Originally posted by Domesticated I see what you're saying, but you could say the same about any human emotion/instinct. I think they all have a hard-wired material basis within the brain, i.e matter creates these emotions and feelings.

i dont know enough about the emotional mechanisms of the brain (hopefully PETRAN will post).

This indeed be sereyus thread. Hearing quality to the nature of reality.

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec I will try to explain: suppose someone has a fear that his girlfriend is cheating on him. whether or not his girlfriend is actually cheating on him, there is an imagination, an image in his mind which results in the release of certain chemicals in the body that create the bodily sensation/phenomenon of fear. It always comes down to that thought. But where does his thought, his logic come from? To a degree it may be informed by memory or cultural expectations. I don't know that you could explain it away as some sort of pheromone...

You are just missing a simple but important step.

"an image in his mind which results in the release of certain chemicals etc."

Certain 'chemicals' also precede the image, and are in fact the cause of the image in his mind.

"To a degree it may be informed by memory or cultural expectations."

I would argue, from a neuroscience point of view, that it may arise ENTIRELY from memory/environmental responses of some sort. This, of course, only begs the question: is everything simply reactionary, or does true volition exist?