I don't think it is very civilised when people start to abuse each other and call each other offensive names

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Originally posted by ToF If you can't handle civilised discussions with interesting points of views then head over to some fairy fanboi forums. Similarly, if you think it's so lame and nerdy GTFO.

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Originally posted by nefardec i could go on and on with providing examples like this. techno is black music, get over it already.

And, as I've repeatedly stated, black music/culture/people do not automatically relate to pre-slavery African culture. The only way black music can inherently channel something from a society the creator did not grow up in is genetically. Which is, once, again, racism.

I'm well aware of Afrika Bambaataa and his Zulu Nation business. Funny thing is I've listened to his music many, many times and it has always sounded distinctly word-based and horizontally composed to me. Which just goes to show that even when someone is very explicitly referencing African culture, it doesn't necessarily mean shit-all for your argument.

Learn 2 Logic.

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Damn, i kinda miss those TA arguments from the usual faces...how are you guys!?




Now i don't understand the reasons behind the furious arguments about the origins of detroit techno. Yes ofcourse there is an indirect African influence in the music of the Belleville trio, you typically get those polyrhythmic patterns and that passion for the drum beat and body-movement. I'm not sure though if those influeces were the direct result of the Belleville trio's exposure to some kind of traditional African music, or maybe an indirect influence arising from African musical elements as they were carried-on by (and contained in) Jazz, Funk and Disco. In any case i think that one can surely sense an "African musical spirit" but mixed (ironically?) with the cold and clear-cut European electronics of Kraftwerk. You either get ingenious success or catastrophic failure after such adventurous and (phenomenally) contrasting blend of ideas. I can't understand whats all the fuss about.

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Originally posted by PETRAN I can't understand whats all the fuss about.

The notion that black people have all got "the tribal beat" playing in their heads and the notion that black culture is actually an inherent, potentially unconscious expression of pre-written culture.

If you read post-colonial theory, there is a very strong and persuasive argument that almost all racism towards black people stems ultimately from a Victorian colonial neurosis towards the black "savage". The Victorians were quite a repressed, religious society and they made a fetish out of civility and educating the savage. It was basically the pretext for all colonial crimes in the 19th Century.

The basic neurosis was that the "black savage" represented everything that Victorian society repressed - sexuality, violence and instinctive animal desires. Hence why even today, black people are hyper-sexualised (the myth that black men have the largest penises), associated with physical activity rather than intellectual thought and ludicrously assumed to be more "in touch" with the tribal groove of mankind, which the repressed white man has lost contact with.

These connections are mostly subtle and implicit in modern society. Most people don't even recognise them. This is a different kind of racism to overt bigotry, but it's arguably a more insidious strain of discrimination.

It's one of the main reasons I fucking hate this black-white metanarrative that predominantly white, middle class musical scholars like to perpetuate: the notion that black music is funky, soulful, loose and that white music is rigid, intellectual and melodic. You'd think techno would be the great destruction of the whole issue, but apparently people can re-convince themselves even in the face of a music as rigid and self-consciously intellectual as it gets. Reducing music to an allegory of the colonial narrative is something that needs to fucking stop. I've no problem with calling techno "black music", although apart from black pride I don't see why the issue would ever be raised, but to associate "black music" with all things African, tribal and pre-alphabet is plain fucked up.

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> DI.FM 26th Anniversary Guest Mix [Progressive House]
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quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J The notion that black people have all got "the tribal beat" playing in their heads and the notion that black culture is actually an inherent, potentially unconscious expression of pre-written culture. If you read post-colonial theory, there is a very strong and persuasive argument that almost all racism towards black people stems ultimately from a Victorian colonial neurosis towards the black "savage". The Victorians were quite a repressed, religious society and they made a fetish out of civility and educating the savage. It was basically the pretext for all colonial crimes in the 19th Century. The basic neurosis was that the "black savage" represented everything that Victorian society repressed - sexuality, violence and instinctive animal desires. Hence why even today, black people are hyper-sexualised (the myth that black men have the largest penises), associated with physical activity rather than intellectual thought and ludicrously assumed to be more "in touch" with the tribal groove of mankind, which the repressed white man has lost contact with. These connections are mostly subtle and implicit in modern society. Most people don't even recognise them. This is a different kind of racism to overt bigotry, but it's arguably a more insidious strain of discrimination. It's one of the main reasons I fucking hate this black-white metanarrative that predominantly white, middle class musical scholars like to perpetuate: the notion that black music is funky, soulful, loose and that white music is rigid, intellectual and melodic. You'd think techno would be the great destruction of the whole issue, but apparently people can re-convince themselves even in the face of a music as rigid and self-consciously intellectual as it gets. Reducing music to an allegory of the colonial narrative is something that needs to fucking stop. I've no problem with calling techno "black music", although apart from black pride I don't see why the issue would ever be raised, but to associate "black music" with all things African, tribal and pre-alphabet is plain fucked up.

Hmm i see what you are talking about-nice post.


Don't get me wrong, but i thing that those stereotypes ("black-music"-yeah even those words look ugly- revolves around rhythm and tempo, whilst "white-music" revolves around melody/pitch etc.) are partly correct. They are still stereotypes though which are not true in the literal sense. In a matter of fact there are many "inter-influences" between the two "musical states of mind" leading to the creation of many musical styles and genres which don't obey to either one or the other.



Other than that, that "lets-return-to-the-roots-go-back-to-nature-find-the-source-new-age-kindof-crackpot-mentality" is completely nonsense and i thing that it bears little resemblance to those musical genres. Musical style, like every piece that conveys information about the world, is a collection of memes-cultural bits of information. "Good memes" pass-on whereas unsuccesful ones die. There is a continuous dynamic and blending on the process. The "rhythmical" elements of "black-music" has influenced "white-music" leading to something successful (e.g. the creation of rock n roll)and similarly white-music has influenced black music (the creation of jazz and even those strings in disco and funk).




There are continuous interactions between succesfull ideas leading to more and more musical outcomes, genres and hence tastes. Now i can't see any deeper meaning/truth in that other than the aesthetic result in the mind's eye. Some people like that, others not. I don't think that those youngsters from detroit have connected their minds and bodies to some "archetypical deeper african truth" and expressed it through their music. I just think that Derrick May happened to like (as he said in an interview once i've red in DJMag)both funkadelic (a funk band from the 60s) and kraftwerk. So, if you "strip-down" the elements of a funk track and play it faster you'll (anyway) going to get something very stereotypically "african-sounding". Add the futuristic lines and robotic sounds of Kraftwerk and you get techno. IMO thats all there is.

Now ofcourse that basic and raw rhythmical sound as it is expressed through machinery is going to evoke some very basic responses in the human brain, something that is likely going to be associated
(partly because it is hard-wired in the brain, but also because the western culture teaches these things e.g. drum beat=primitive music) with the idea of the primitive.

Last edited by PETRAN on Nov-20-2009 at 17:06

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J The notion that black people have all got "the tribal beat" playing in their heads and the notion that black culture is actually an inherent, potentially unconscious expression of pre-written culture. ... It's one of the main reasons I fucking hate this black-white metanarrative that predominantly white, middle class musical scholars like to perpetuate: the notion that black music is funky, soulful, loose and that white music is rigid, intellectual and melodic. You'd think techno would be the great destruction of the whole issue, but apparently people can re-convince themselves even in the face of a music as rigid and self-consciously intellectual as it gets. Reducing music to an allegory of the colonial narrative is something that needs to fucking stop. I've no problem with calling techno "black music", although apart from black pride I don't see why the issue would ever be raised, but to associate "black music" with all things African, tribal and pre-alphabet is plain fucked up.

That is a gross oversimplification of what I said, and highly misrepresentative.

I did not say that black music is associated with all things african, I said that a lot of black musicians, even black techno musicians have preoccupations with and interests in their african heritage, either directly, or indirectly through other music that they were inspired by, and it comes across in their own music.

I did not say anything about 'tribal', wtf?

I did not say anything about pre-alphabet, I said that it is a culture in which the alphabet or written word is not as dominant as image-based modes of thought.

LEARN 2 READ


Also, you seem to have little idea about current scholarship in race and music.

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It's one of the main reasons I fucking hate this black-white metanarrative that predominantly white, middle class musical scholars like to perpetuate: the notion that black music is funky, soulful, loose and that white music is rigid, intellectual and melodic.

wtf?

here are some books for you to read that I have found enlightening. Written by black scholars.

Henry Louis Gates Jr - The Signifying Monkey: A Theory of African-American Literary Criticism

LeRoi Jones - Blues People: Negro Music in White America

Kodwo Eshun - More Brilliant Than The Sun


And this author isn't black, but he is the preeminent scholar of african art in the usa
Robert Farris Thompson - Flash of the Spirit: African & Afro-American Art & Philosophy

Why is it that you are so against the idea that African culture influences a lot of black music, including techno?

Last edited by nefardec on Nov-20-2009 at 23:25

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Originally posted by nefardec That is a gross oversimplification of what I said, and highly misrepresentative. I did not say that black music is associated with all things african, I said that a lot of black musicians, even black techno musicians have preoccupations with and interests in their african heritage, either directly, or indirectly through other music that they were inspired by, and it comes across in their own music. I did not say anything about 'tribal', wtf? I did not say anything about pre-alphabet, I said that it is a culture in which the alphabet or written word is not as dominant as image-based modes of thought. LEARN 2 READ Also, you seem to have little idea about current scholarship in race and music. wtf? here are some books for you to read that I have found enlightening. Written by black scholars. Henry Louis Gates Jr - The Signifying Monkey: A Theory of African-American Literary Criticism LeRoi Jones - Blues People: Negro Music in White America Kodwo Eshun - More Brilliant Than The Sun And this author isn't black, but he is the preeminent scholar of african art in the usa Robert Farris Thompson - Flash of the Spirit: African & Afro-American Art & Philosophy Why is it that you are so against the idea that African culture influences a lot of black music, including techno?

Nef, i agree on influence. Yes ofcourse there is such an influence on techno music. But an "influence" is different than "reproduction" of something about transmitting a cultural originality or "trueness"-or anything like that. An african influence doesn't make it african or culturally-related (if that was what you were saying, i admit that i haven't red your original posts). Here is an interesting quote from wiki i find interesting but i guess that you may know it.


From its early development until the present, jazz has incorporated music from 19th and 20th century American popular music.[1] Its West African pedigree is evident in its use of blue notes, improvisation, polyrhythms, syncopation, and the swung note[2] but one of jazz's iconic figures Art Blakey has been quoted as saying, "No America, no jazz. I’ve seen people try to connect it to other countries, for instance to Africa, but it doesn’t have a damn thing to do with Africa".[3]


I would personally say a similar thing about techno (and more specifically Detroit)

the first record that derrick may ever bought was a Who album.

*raises fist*

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As someone from Africa I just want to say that I don't have any preoccupations with my heritage. I don't think many black people who have lived in America all their lives are thinking about that. They may be thinking about racism, bigotry, and the difficulties of being black or poor or whatever, but I don't think it has shit to do with Africa. There is a large difference between things African and black.

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Originally posted by Lews As someone from Africa I just want to say that I don't have any preoccupations with my heritage. I don't think many black people who have lived in America all their lives are thinking about that. They may be thinking about racism, bigotry, and the difficulties of being black or poor or whatever, but I don't think it has shit to do with Africa. There is a large difference between things African and black.

I agree. I have never thought of the black people in USA as "africans" in any kind of sense. That's why I also think that the name "afro american" is misleading. The only thing they have in common with the African continent is the skin color. Apart from that they are totally diferent.
Even the white and the indian who live in Africa are more "african" than the black in USA.

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quote:

Originally posted by Lews As someone from Africa I just want to say that I don't have any preoccupations with my heritage. I don't think many black people who have lived in America all their lives are thinking about that. They may be thinking about racism, bigotry, and the difficulties of being black or poor or whatever, but I don't think it has shit to do with Africa. There is a large difference between things African and black.

prog lovin nigga

___________________
Whooooooo Hawwwww Whoooooo Hawwwww. - Busta Rhymes 3:16

www.soundcloud.com/le-freak

Le Freak - Funk for Cows (pure fat bitch haus..click and free wet naps.)