I did address this myth. It does not take in effect the actual health of the person taking it. It does reduce strokes as it thins your blood. This would not be a problem if the person was healthy to begin and can be completely avoided by taking a prescription blood thinner. I would like to see the full study rather than the meta analysis to see what sort of people they chose and how the study was done.

Association is not causation.

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quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad I did address this myth. It does not take in effect the actual health of the person taking it. It does reduce strokes as it thins your blood.

The full analysis (available at the link) uses total mortality as an endpoint, not just strokes. In other words, people who drink moderately live longer, even if we disregard the cause of death. It could be a spurious correlation, but then we need another hypothesis to explain the association.

I think it would be safe to say alcohol lowers stress. The problem with the study is that it probably does not take this into account therefore says nothing about the actual health benefit of alcohol itself. I won't deny that stress can be a killer and anything you take to lower stress might help but it still does not change the metabolic effects alcohol has on the body. Had they done the same study with people taking Benzodiazapines instead , they would find the same results. Of course to find enough participants would be difficult.

So the study shows a correlation but says absolutely nothing regarding how healthy alcohol is on its own.

There are so many variants. Age, original health …. I did say that alcohol would be the worst drug to take but of course this would not be the case for anyone that is old with a heart issue. In that instance, cocaine would probably be much worse. I do stand by what I said about prescription heroin. My sister has been an anesthetist for 10 years. She knows her narcotics and how they are metabolized. People can lead a very healthy life taking properly administered prescription morphine even with the tolerance your body will develop. It isn't very practical as the only people that have access to this are terminal patients and doctors with drug decency issues.

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Last edited by Looney4Clooney on Sep-26-2010 at 14:49

Yes, I agree with you regarding opiates. Given standardized dosage and purity (not available to most people for recreation, obviously), they are extremely safe.

I suppose practicality is the problem with comparing different drugs. People can have one or 2 drinks as it does taste good but nobody will do 1/8 of a pill or 1/16 of a gram of cocaine. If you made a standardized dosage for any given pure substance, I am convinced alcohol would have the highest impact on your body. Again due to practicality, most studies involving drugs use participants that already use them and they already tend to be addicts so the results are not much use for an objective look on how different chemicals affect the body. This is why I specified that what I said does not take into account the addiction factor.

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The thing I don't like about alcohol is this:

If you take an opiate, the actual doses required to get an effect are extremely low, this obviously changes with tolerance but compare it to alcohol.
In order to get an effect from alcohol, you have to drink an exponentially larger volume. Both alcohol and opiates will effect different regions of the brain, but opiates are more selective. Alcohol fucks with EVERYTHING.

Comparing a "moderate" dose of each, say it takes 100mg of oxycodone to get a moderate effect (which is really a lot for most people). And lets say it takes the avg person 4-6 beers to get a similar moderate effect.
That alcohol is flooding your bloodstream, exposing its corrosive properties at a much higher level than 100mg of a hydrochloride salt. Your organs are literally sitting in that alcohol, liver, kidneys, brain, the CNS. There is a much more intense corrosive effect on your body in general. I see people who have been drinking for only 3-4 years and their bodies look fucked up. Blood vessels are breaking in their skin, their skin turns bright red, it also has a notable corroded look to it. If I see a moderate oxy/opiate user they look a lot healthier after only a couple of years. They can STILL go to the gym and work out, they can still do a great deal of normal things that alcohol wears away in alcoholics. If that same opiate user turns into a full out junkie, then yeh they start seriously fucking on their nervous system in general, but I still think alcohol is much more traumatic for the body.
After I drink my whole body aches, my joints hurt, my body floods with water and bloats, I get a headaches, I can FEEL how traumatic the alcohol is to my body after only 1 use. If I take a moderate dose of opiates I do NOT feel like my body has been traumatized. Although I may feel a bit tired the following day its still not even close to how I feel after drinking.

All I know is when I use to binge drink early in college I always felt like shit. I never felt that way with opiates untill your body actually adapts to them, and then yeh you feel unhealthy, but it takes a lot longer to feel that way imo.
Look at the users alcohol has in industry, it dissolves paints, corrodes polymers, and is used a solvent for solutes that are generally stubborn. Drinking a couple drinks I don't mind, but when you get enough alcohol in your blood I question what its actually doing to your organs. It changes the chemistry of your blood soooo much more than a hydrochloride salt will, and I just believe alcohol is much more of a poison to the body in general, like M4B said.

100 mg of oxycodone ? you realize most percocets used for pain have about 5 mg of oxycodone. That is an insane dosage. Perhaps you are thinking of a ratio pill like percocets including the tylenol that it is cut with usually 325mg to every 5mg of opiates.I can take 2 percocets and feel loopy and that is only 10 mgs. I did google it tho and they do make such a pill. That must floor you although the ones I read about were time released.

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quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad I don't see why it is that hard to understand, I'm not advocating taking anything, I just think most people like yourselves have absolutely no idea how drugs work and how they interact with your body.

Umm, I have a Biomedical Science degree and I work in the pharmaceutical industry. I have countless friends and colleagues in the pharma sector, medical devices sector, health care professionals (GPs, specialists), in research and so on.
Me entire job revolves around me knowing exactly how drugs work on the smallest level. I've spent countless hours explaining to doctors exactly what everything means, getting into amazing detail, discussing metabolic pathways, side effects, indications etc

JBJ provided you with a meta-analysis which is the highest form of evidence available, and yet you ask him for a single study? You clearly don't understand what a meta-analysis is then.

Have you never spoken to a cardiologist before? You would be hard pressed to find one that would speak against a glass of red wine per day, because they are aware of the beneficial chemicals that come from the grape skin (mainly red wine) and are also aware that a glass or two to a normal persons liver is negligible in terms of work and damage.

Robby - What you're talking about is a dose related to a symptomatic effect. Just because you intake a certain amount of something, doesn't mean it's not doing anything if you don't feel it.
You're also linking 'heavy alcohol consumption' to everything. A drink or two is not corrosive to your insides, any potential damage is easily cleaned up by your cells which are dying and replicating anyway, constantly, all throughout your life.
Wine is also a natural product, most opioids are semi-synthetic. Some like methadone are even fully synthetic. They are also addictive by their very nature.
Need I go on?

After you drink your whole body aches? You need to go see a doctor because that's not a normal response and it's absurd for you to take your single experience with it and attribute it to all people.

Both of you, just stop. It's abundantly clear that you're basing your opinions on some sort of personal experience and most likely a completely skewed view of the subject we're discussing. All you're doing is spreading misinformation around.
Go back to what you're good at, music.

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quote:

Originally posted by Fledz Umm, I have a Biomedical Science degree and I work in the pharmaceutical industry. I have countless friends and colleagues in the pharma sector, medical devices sector, health care professionals (GPs, specialists), in research and so on. Me entire job revolves around me knowing exactly how drugs work on the smallest level. I've spent countless hours explaining to doctors exactly what everything means, getting into amazing detail, discussing metabolic pathways, side effects, indications etc .

You have an undergrad and you work for a pharmaceutical company. Impressive. The undergrad is the new high school diploma but good for you. You are 23, probably just graduated with an intro position. You actually think you learned much in those 4 years ? I've probably taken as many electives in science as you did for your entire degree. If you are so knowledgeable, perhaps you could explain how morphine is metabolized and how it differs from alcohol. You are assuming that people are only drinking 2 drinks. Consider a dosage of heroin to the effect of getting high to someone that gets drunk. Now use that as an index to administer what 2 beers would be in terms of similar indexed dosage of morphine. If you think the alcohol is better for your body, you are just dumb.

Again your mention of a GP recommending wine is association, not causation. The reduction of stress is what the doctor is advocating, not drinking. Unfortunately alcohol is the only legal downer without a prescription.

And if you think meta analysis is the end all and be all of research, here is one on homeopathy available on pubmed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19371571

meta analysis is open to bias by the very person who compiles the studies and chooses what to include and what not to included. The one posted by JBJ showed absolutely no causation. Of course your low level of education has probably not allowed your critical thinking skills to mature past what your pharm company tells you what is and isn't the truth. As far as sticking to what i'm good at, well that is a long fucking list. But for now, I seem to be excelling in pissing you off so I will stick with that.

Here are some studies that say otherwise than doctors that really don't know what they are talking about. It is more the anti oxidants of the grape rather than the alcohol that present a health benefit. Eat some fucking grapes you lemon.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20661834
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20693964
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20378684
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20045009

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Last edited by Looney4Clooney on Sep-27-2010 at 02:17

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad 100 mg of oxycodone ? you realize most percocets used for pain have about 5 mg of oxycodone. That is an insane dosage. Perhaps you are thinking of a ratio pill like percocets including the tylenol that it is cut with usually 325mg to every 5mg of opiates.I can take 2 percocets and feel loopy and that is only 10 mgs. I did google it tho and they do make such a pill. That must floor you although the ones I read about were time released.

Yeh I've seen the 5mg before but they never really did anything to me unless I took a bunch of them. Even the first time I ever took oxy I think I did 20mg and it just made me a bit relaxed/chill, but none of the class opiate effects I was expecting (I had played around with fentanyl a bit before that which is prob why).

We would normally get the 30mg and the most I would take at anytime was 2-3, so I'm not sure why I mentioned 100mg that is actually insanely high when I think about it lol.

60mg is usually more than enough and I only go above that if I'm feeling crazy. I know a lot of people who get effects at low doses like you mentioned I just couldn't really distinguish from placebo being that low. The reason I said 100mg is because I have a friend who's hooked on that shit and he takes anywhere between 200mg-250mg a day, which I consider "high". I consider your dose at 10mg low, and 100mg just seemed like a good in between #. I've never gotten anything bigger than the 30mg though it would make sense that the 100mg ones wouldn't be instant release (too many newbies would prob kill themself).

well their's one thing we can agree on booze gives you the shits!!!!

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quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad You have an undergrad and you work for a pharmaceutical company. Impressive. The undergrad is the new high school diploma but good for you. If you are so knowledgeable, perhaps you could explain how morphine is metabolized and how it differs from alcohol. You are assuming that people are only drinking 2 drinks. Consider a dosage of heroin to the effect of getting high to someone that gets drunk. Now use that as an index to administer what 2 beers would be in terms of similar indexed dosage of morphine. If you think the alcohol is better for your body, you are just dumb.

You realise you're grouping all alcohol together right? Wine, beer and spirits have plenty of different ingredients and effects on the body because of it.
Once again, you stated that alcohol is the biggest poison. It's not. That is an absurd thing to say especially when you consider how beneficial resveratrol appears to be when ingested in moderation, mainly sourced from red wine.

Also, we're talking about standard amounts here, one or two drinks per day. You can't say that someone might drink a keg of beer and that it's not good for them. Well no shit there Sherlock.

I don't work with opioids though I almost did, so I'm not going to pretend I know them inside and out, but I do know that it's extremely addictive which we've covered already and while it does show some benefits in long term use (which drug doesn't?), it's also shown to negatively affect the immune system over a long period of time even in low doses, something that doesn't compare to alcohol at low doses and most likely not even at higher doses for an extended period of time.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad Again your mention of a GP recommending wine is association, not causation. The reduction of stress is what the doctor is advocating, not drinking. Unfortunately alcohol is the only legal downer without a prescription.

Once again not true. The advocation of a glass or two of red wine, perhaps even a glass of a spirit such a cognac/whisky comes from the specialists who have observed great benefits for the hearth and cardiovascular system in general, when taken in moderation at regular intervals over a prolonged period.
A lot of it is anecdotal evidence but it's by far the vast majority and you would have no trouble finding a heap of discussions and papers on the benefits of moderate alcohol consumption.

quote:

Originally posted by Mad for Brad And if you think meta analysis is the end all and be all of research, here is one on homeopathy available on pubmed http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19371571 meta analysis is open to bias by the very person who compiles the studies and chooses what to include and what not to included. The one posted by JBJ showed absolutely no causation. Of course your low level of education has probably not allowed your critical thinking skills to mature past what your pharm company tells you what is and isn't the truth. As far as sticking to what i'm good at, well that is a long fucking list. But for now, I seem to be excelling in pissing you off so I will stick with that.

What does that pumbed journal entry have to do with anything we're discussing? Is that some sort of attempt at discrediting all meta-analysis?

Of course they are open to bias, but that's what peer review is for. Do you even understand how science works? Do I need to bring PKC here in for you to explain to you basic science concepts like he had to for the 911 conspiracy theorists, or will you continue to pretend you understand it?

It's funny that you assume I'm pissed off, when you were the one that originally had a hissy fit and quit this forum, then returned with an alt. You're still the exact same egotistical jackass you were before and I look forward to the day you throw your toys out of the pram again

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