quote:

Originally posted by sothis sorry folks, i cant walk down to the white house today and say "please sir, change your foreign policy".. so stop acting like i can, with your comments.

yes, your right you can't. but, you know who can? I'll give you a hint, you were at his house having a BBQ not long ago.

that's right, your boss Mr. Gates could influence foreign policy, simply because he is so rich. this is what pisses me off about america.

(just want to note Micrososft gives lots of money to charity, including tons to dancesafe, and i have no problem with them)

quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith (just want to note Micrososft gives lots of money to charity, including tons to dancesafe, and i have no problem with them)

jus a side note...LOL>..Bill Gates gives that money to charity for tax purposes...LOL>....he would love to keep it all for himself...but he has to give it away....its all deductable anyway..lol

___________________
Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

bill gates gives a shitload of money to charity, more than any hollywood movie star or rich person does... he is certainly doing his part, so i dont see why he would be under the line of fire. and i really dont think bill gates can call up president bush and say "hey, can you please change your foreign policy?"

hes runs a software company, he isnt a politician. maybe you think thats how it works around here, but i dont think it is.

but ok. ill go into outlook right now, type in his alias (yes, if i wanted to, i could write an email to bill gates), and tell him he needs to do something about foreign policy somehow, even tho he isnt connected to politics at all, and that he is being a selfish prick and should be doing something.

lets see how long i keep my job. right.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith hmm... Renegade, i really like what you had to say. [1.]tiesto14.. you have some valid points, but.. still, you need to look a bit deeper. i'm not going to waste my time going into everything, but.. do you really think US corporations and US governments are that separate? [2.]Big buisness has both the republican and democratic parties securely tucked away in their back pocket. and, the richest big business of all, the oil industry, is most responsible for this. guess what, george bush junior, and senior are from texas, and very involved in the oil buisness. they make billions on oil. and will make trillions more if they can take over afghanistan.

1. No offence but you really do mate

2. What did I say about 4 pages back !!!

quote:

Originally posted by mos man During the elections Bush was funded by large corperations such as oil industrys, these are serious players which are so big that i'm sure you and I couldn't begin to imagine what sort of influence they have on world affairs.. Look at a map of where major pipelines run through the middle eastern countrys, strange that iraq is in the way of oil going to and from American occupied areas, wouldn't it be convienient if there were pipelines running through Iraq as well.. Think about it

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Keep it clean,
Keep it green..

Last edited by mos man on Aug-22-2002 at 17:49

quote:

he would love to keep it all for himself...but he has to give it away....its all deductable anyway..lol

my mom works at an elementary school. elementary schools have almost zero funding for computers, computer software, etc. high schools, probably have more, but not entry level grade schools like that.

my mom teaches fifth grade. she wants to get the students involved with computers... i grew up with them, she wants to put them in the lives of students that can use them a lot more than i can when i was 10.

my mom applied for a grant, from the bill gates foundation... for schools. she was one of 10 people who got this grant. her classroom now has 10 1.2 ghz machines, with software, new hardware, etc. NO ONE ELSE in the school has anything that touches it.

because of bill gates giving away money, my mom PERSONALLY can put computers into the lives of kids who normally, at school, probably wouldnt. (before this, all she had was old 486s or low speed pentiums, since thats all the school district really gives out to elementary schools)

so i dont care if he does it for tax purposes. someone i know personally has been affected in a very positive way by their charity, so im not complaining, and neither should anyone else.

Yes, i know bill does give tons, and that's good for him, like i said i have no problems with what microsoft does.

I disagree with you that he could not change foreign policy, if he wanted to though. it would take a large bribe, but, i believe george bush is recieving those daily anyway.

now.. just because bill gates COULD that doesn't mean that it is his responsibility, and i am not slagging him for not doing anything. nor do i expect you to try and convince him too, or even suggest it to him, i doubt he would listen.

but.. this brings up a larger issue.

bad things happen when good people stand around and do nothing.

here are a few quotes that i find highly relevant:

Leaders symbolize what the country stands for. As corruption becomes routine in Washington in both parties, it trickles down as a corrupting influence in everyone's lives... Democracy is the ultimate casualty, and the sapping of democratic life is the most serious contribution of corporate ascendancy to our spiritual decline. As democracy ebbs, Americans retreat into private cocoons, feeling helpless to make a difference... In a democracy, civic participation and the belief in one's ability to contribute to the common good is the most important guarantor of public morality. When that belief fades, so too does the vision of the common good itself - Charles Derber, Corporation Nation

Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience ... Therefore [individual citizens] have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring - Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal, 1950

quote:

Originally posted by sothis my mom works at an elementary school. elementary schools have almost zero funding for computers, computer software, etc. high schools, probably have more, but not entry level grade schools like that. my mom teaches fifth grade. she wants to get the students involved with computers... i grew up with them, she wants to put them in the lives of students that can use them a lot more than i can when i was 10. my mom applied for a grant, from the bill gates foundation... for schools. she was one of 10 people who got this grant. her classroom now has 10 1.2 ghz machines, with software, new hardware, etc. NO ONE ELSE in the school has anything that touches it. because of bill gates giving away money, my mom PERSONALLY can put computers into the lives of kids who normally, at school, probably wouldnt. (before this, all she had was old 486s or low speed pentiums, since thats all the school district really gives out to elementary schools) so i dont care if he does it for tax purposes. someone i know personally has been affected in a very positive way by their charity, so im not complaining, and neither should anyone else.

i was jus making a point that he has a hidden ajenda...

___________________
Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith it would take a large bribe, but, i believe george bush is recieving those daily anyway.

LoL your thinking of Clinton..hes gone...LOL

quote:

Originally posted by JohnSmith bad things happen when good people stand around and do nothing..

THATS WHY THE U.S. IS GUNNA BOMB IRAQ...AND ACTS AS THE WORLDS POLICE....U JUS PROOVED OUR POINT...THANK YOU

___________________
Bring back 1994 NYC clubbing nights, cus the sh*t today is filled with junk parties and DJs that play sh*t House.....Zabiela, Sander, or Howells and all the rest suck and couldnt throw a night like it was in the early 90s in NYC!!!...Screw Twilo - give me Limelight circa 1993!!!

quote:

we are attacking Afghanistan for reasons that don't have to be explained...

Quite clearly I am having a blond moment, because I have no idea why the US attacked Afghanistan, deposed the government, and then forced the country to abide by the US' idea of government (did no-one else take note of the complete mess that the elections there were?).

Last time I checked, the state of Afghanistan didn't in any way organise, fund or condone what happened on 11/9.

quote:

and we are going to attack Iraq because Hussein is a mad man that refuses UN inspectors to come in and he will eventually attack us.....

Saddam Hussein - as much as I dislike the man - could probably say the same thing about the US.

While the UN stands idly by, the US continues to develop an arsenal of nuclear and other destructive weapons, ready to attack any any country it perceives as a threat. How is the US pre-emptively attacking Iraq - with its vastly superior (both in terms of technology and number) arsenal - any better than Iraq pre-emptively attacking the US?

It may sound like a silly question at first, but try thinking about it objectively.

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intelligence has warned us that Hussein has chemical/biological weapons in the works...and has tryed on several occasions to purchase nuclear weapons.......

With the emphasis on "tryed" (sic).

He has no nuclear weapons, and there is no clear evidence that he has chemical/biological weapons either (though it is quite clear that he is attempting to manufacture them, which is just as bad in a sense).

In either case, the destructive power of his weapons doesn't come close to those that the US posess. What's the difference? Objectively, tell me why it's okay to have such a double-standard?

quote:

the U.S. has been targetted with terrorism for a long time...

Precisely the same amount of time (I imagine) that they have been stationed in Arab nations against the will of the people. Coincidence?

The Ayatolah may have kicked it off in a sense, but it is the US - now - who ensure that the anti-American invective continues.

quote:

RASH?...more then Osama?

No, I never said that.

quote:

lets see Osama orchestrated the attacks...Bush rettaliated.....whats more rash?....

Both killed innocents. Both, irrevokably, changed the lives of the countries they attacked. Both acted because they felt their homeland was being compromised by an external entity. Both promise revenge. Only one is in charge of the largest nuclear arsenal in the world.

Who am I meant to be scared of?

quote:

he did what ANY good leader would do..he went back at the attacks with vengence.....

Yes, but the vengence was misdirected. The people who carried out the attacks are dead, so there was no rational way to get back at them. Osama Bin Laden went into hiding and could not be found, so there was no rational way to get back at him. So, the US did the next best thing and invaded the country that Osama Bin Laden was last seen in, deposed the government and carpet bombed what little infrastructure those people had.

They got revenge, alright, but not on the people who deserved it.

quote:

anyway...imagine if Osama had nuclear weapons or Hussein or Kudafee or Palestine and blah blah....if they did they would use them...so whatever.....

Yes but they don't, so they can afford to be more irrational than Bush.

I'm not saying that they're good people, or that we shouldn't fear them, or - indeed - that they aren't dangerous, I'm simply saying that their irrationalism can do far less harm than the irrationalism of Mr. Bush.

quote:

yep... and these same countries, while burning american flags and teaching their children how evil the U.S. is, still beg us for foreign aid. they want us to fund their food and living situations, yet talk shit about how evil we are. it kind of bothers me.

Americans are quick to talk about how much tangible foregin aid they dish out (in the form of food and other simple supplies to the people of underprivilaged countries) but fail to acknowledge the economic damage that they are doing simultaneously.

There was an ad on Australian TV a while back regarding the IMF, which said that for every dollar they give to countries as economic aid, they take back seven in interest. The idea behind American aid (though, many other western countries are at fault here too) is that they lend a country some money to build an economy, assuming that the economy will improve drastically as a result of this injection, and then take back the money (plus a load of interest) in 10 years or so. The countries then have to take out additional loans to pay back the interest and - long story short - nothing gets built, the economy remains stagnant, and they end up losing more money than they borrow, while the interest continues to mount.

Now you have to understand, that the amount of money these countries borrow - compared to the American GDP - is miniscule. Yet it's a lot to them. That is why there is a muted campaign (not just against the US I hasten to add) to wipe 3rd world debt clean, and to give them a chance to get back on their feet. As it stands now - with the aid they are currently receiving - they are taking three steps back for every step they take forward.

The majority of humanitarian aid (which is funded more by the American public than the American government I suspect) however, does greatly benefit the people of these nations. The work of Care International and the Red Cross is brilliant, and whoever supports these causes deserves to be congratulated. Nonetheless, their work will continue to mount and to be in vain, so long as the US and other western governments strangle the economies of the very people that the Red Cross and Care are trying to help.

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if third world countries are going to keep sucking away my taxpayers money while condemning us in the same breath... lets just pull out and let them kill themselves off.

A very enlightened perspective.

As I said before, as a tax payer you have nothing to worry about, because - if the IMF ad was accurate (and I have heard nothing to suggest that it is not) - you're actually getting a 700% return on your outlay.

If you're giving to humanitarian aid then it's different, but I'm condemning the US approach to economic aid, not necessarily its approach to humanitarian aid (though the former hinders the effectiveness of the latter).

quote:

what other countries are out there, being the policeman of the world? thats right, NO ONE.. except the U.S..

No-one asked it to be the policeman. It imposed itself, and I suspect that that is the base of the "qualms" articulated by the people you speak of.

No-one asked it to invade Afghanistan, or to give aid to the Iraqi's during the Iran/Iraq war, or to napalm innocent villagers in Vietnam, or to continue to defy the wishes of the Muslim people by stationing its own troops in Islamic holy places. The policeman here seems to have evolved beyond simply upholding justice, it seems obsessed with ramming its own justice down the throats of anyone and everyone. And you wonder why much of the world is angry? How would you like the members of another country butting in and telling you how your own should operate?

I'll tell you how you'd feel. Much as you are right now: angry. I am offering my opinion - on what I feel is right - and you strongly disagree with me. Now picture your frustration about being told how your way of life, and your system of government is flawed, then imagine me telling you all this while my country is occupying your region and deposing governments similar to your own. Sorry sothis, your system of government is unsatisfactory, allow me to overthrow it on your behalf. You seem to be angry at me questioning your system of government and governmental policy, yet you do not offer the same sentiments to the people of the countries your government occupies, nor those like-minded people of neighbouring countries.

As annoyed as you may be right now at having these opinions merely raised, try and live with having these opinions forcefully fed to you. Don't try and tell me you'd be happy being "policed" in such a way.

*gives renegade a standing ovation*

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"Wenn du dich zum Untergrund zählst, reicht es nicht, es nur zu sagen. Du musst auch viel graben, um es zu werden."

*joins in the ovation*