quote:

Originally posted by jad Are you insisting that the backwardness of an extremist minority warrants a military attack on a whole population? How exactly will this lead to a a better or more secular Iran at the end of the day? Please do explain yourself.

In the case of Iran, yes. BEcuase that minority can cause MAJOR affects. Many people think that Bombing iran will reunite the people behind the mullahs, but i think the opposite.

Nobody likes the mullahs. 70% of the country is under 30 and they hate their leaders.

These rulers are animals. THey will stop at nothing to gain power and spread Islam by force. Already they are causing problems in Turkey. LOok what they are doing in Syria. Look at how they ruined Leabnons lustre ever since they began supporting hezbollah.

They want a bomb. They will not use it, but use it as leverage to wage more of their archaic shit.

Not only this, they are evil. They have ruined Iran and will not go without force. They will kill everyone they can to stay in power.. just look at how they are dealing with Assad and his response to Syria. Who do you think is feeding him?

The mullahs are not responsible people and bombing specific targets to weaken them so they can be overthrown is plausable.

If they are not forced out.. (and i think bombs would greatly help),,, they will continue their death cult ways

___________________
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-MARCO V

Last edited by Cyrus King on Sep-14-2012 at 20:52

quote:

Originally posted by LightsOut http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaceful_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani...9Foara_protests http://www.tallinn-life.com/tallinn...ging-revolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Way

Note that I mentioned protests in Iran between '09 and '12 - all are failed protests, and you mentioned examples of successful revolutions, ironically all involving former Warsaw Pact states (which should be all grouped into one). The big difference is that Iranian regime has shown that its willing to use the full brunt of force to maintain power. Just like Assad's Syria. Not the same as Velvet Revolution. The best analogy would instead be these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianan...rotests_of_1989

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungar...olution_of_1956

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens...echnic_uprising

etc.

___________________
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quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Note that I mentioned protests in Iran between '09 and '12 - all are failed protests, and you mentioned examples of successful revolutions, in mostly Eastern Europe. The big difference is that Iranian regime has shown that its willing to use the full brunt of force to maintain power. Just like Assad's Syria. Not the same as Velvet Revolution. The best analogy would instead be these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianan...rotests_of_1989 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungar...olution_of_1956 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens...echnic_uprising etc.

Obviously not every protest/movement is going to be successful. You said that "protests and internal changes will be highly effective and achieve democracy with no problem. Not." Protesting and politcal change brought on by internal revolution can 100% work, and has in the past. Russia was prepared to, and did use force repeatedly, for decades, to keep the iron curtain in place. Maybe not in the velvet revolution specifically, but that's just an example of how perfectly these types of revolutions can work in the right circumstances. Not even a single shot fired. Regardless, if the options on the table are 1) military intervention from the west, or 2) an uprising from within, I'd take the uprising any day.

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Shah and his people were brutal propagandistic corrupt assholes as well. Then came Khomeiny and his promise of free everything "communist style" and poor Iranians fell for it. They really had no clue who this Khomeiny guy really was, but he was pro-god instead of pro-America and that was the change people were told is good for them. Talk about jumping from the frying pan into the fire!

quote:

Originally posted by LightsOut Obviously not every protest/movement is going to be successful. You said that "protests and internal changes will be highly effective and achieve democracy with no problem. Not." Protesting and politcal change brought on by internal revolution can 100% work, and has in the past. Russia was prepared to, and did use force repeatedly, for decades, to keep the iron curtain in place. Maybe not in the velvet revolution specifically, but that's just an example of how perfectly these types of revolutions can work in the right circumstances. Not even a single shot fired. Regardless, if the options on the table are 1) military intervention from the west, or 2) an uprising from within, I'd take the uprising any day.

In 1991 during Gorbachev's perestroika, which was ushering immense changes in entire Warsaw Bloc of the kind that was unheard of and impossible even 10 years before. So the hardliners attempted to desperately seize power and depose Gorbachev, sending tanks into Moscow. But by then there was noone left to support the old guard. The soldiers and even the commanders simply refused to fire into the crowd.

Iran is not facing any type of perestroika, far from it. Peaceful protests will not achieve anything in places like Iran or Syria. Those countries have not yet reached the kind of conditions needed for that to happen. The only way any level of change can be achieved there is by force. On the other hand, Burma's dictators who have ruled their nation of Myanmar for six decades, have realized that the entire country wants change and its finally time. And most of the junta is willing to start the change.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by spolitta Shah and his people were brutal propagandistic corrupt assholes as well. Then came Khomeiny and his promise of free everything "communist style" and poor Iranians fell for it. They really had no clue who this Khomeiny guy really was, but he was pro-god instead of pro-America and that was the change people were told is good for them. Talk about jumping from the frying pan into the fire!

The shah was also a stupid man. He had a chance to assassinate Khomeini in France.. and he didnt. From there, that towel head sent tape recordings about mass uprising from his comfy parisian cottage, urging iranians to overthrow their king.

Like i said, the CANCER NEEDS TO BE EXCISED.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Iran is not facing any type of perestroika, far from it. Peaceful protests will not achieve anything in places like Iran or Syria. Those countries have not yet reached the kind of conditions needed for that to happen. The only way any level of change can be achieved there is by force. On the other hand, Burma's dictators who have ruled their nation of Myanmar for six decades, have realized that the entire country wants change and its finally time. And most of the junta is willing to start the change.

I agree the landscape had changed by the late 80's and early 90's in Eastern Europe, which allowed the Iron Curtain to eventually fall. But for decades before that Moscow ruled with an iron fist and had no problem cracking down and doing anything possible to keep order. It's not so far removed from what Mubarak did in Egypt. The Middle east is ready for change right now, just like Europe was towards the end of the USSR. Which way they'll go (pro-western democracy or isolationist islamic state), I don't know.

If you don't want the change to come from within, then what would you propose? Let's just have the US/Canada/UK/Germany bomb the shit out of multiple countries, and embark on another 10 years military campaign costing trillions, all so a pupper government can finally be put in place for a few years? The Iron Curtain fell without western military powers getting involved with boots on the ground, surely the same can happen in the middle east if the people there really want it.

___________________
MATTY |

• Ambivalent - R U OK (Kasper is OK Mix)
  
• Do Santos - Menina
  
• Heartthrob - Baby Kate (Magda's "Where Is My Baby's Daddy" Mix)
  
• Danton Eeprom - To The Bone (Jamie Jones Deep Sea Dub Mix)
  
• Matt Nordstrom - Lucky Drawls (Mark Brooms No Rave Stab Mix)

quote:

Originally posted by LightsOut I agree the landscape had changed by the late 80's and early 90's in Eastern Europe, which allowed the Iron Curtain to eventually fall. But for decades before that Moscow ruled with an iron fist and had no problem cracking down and doing anything possible to keep order. It's not so far removed from what Mubarak did in Egypt. The Middle east is ready for change right now, just like Europe was towards the end of the USSR. Which way they'll go (pro-western democracy or isolationist islamic state), I don't know. If you don't want the change to come from within, then what would you propose? Let's just have the US/Canada/UK/Germany bomb the shit out of multiple countries, and embark on another 10 years military campaign costing trillions, all so a pupper government can finally be put in place for a few years? The Iron Curtain fell without western military powers getting involved with boots on the ground, surely the same can happen in the middle east if the people there really want it.

Change should come from within, thats the best way for a country to move forward. From historical standpoint. Foreign intervention [or invasion] like in Iraq, Syria and Libya has left their people and nations scarred and unstable. Intervention in places like Somalia has only fueled more support for Al-Shabab related militants. On the other hand, intervention in places like the former Yugoslavia may have prevented further bloodshed.

At the same time, there's a general tendency for popular peaceful revolutions in multi-ethnic multi-religious nations to topple dictactors and then descend into civil wars or collapse into separate nations.

It's complicated. But the point that I am restating is that Iran is far from being ready for a regime change. Bombing the country or arming the opposition will have a drastic negative effect not only on the future of Iran, but inflame the tensions in the entire region. Just look at Syria. The violence there is affecting the ethnic tensions and violence in Lebanon. Armed and confident Syrian Kurds in de-facto free north-east of the country are stepping up their campaigns against Turkey and drawing Turkish threats for military attacks against Syrian territory. Syria shot down Turkish plane. There was an exchange of fire between Jordanian and Syrian troops near a border post. And so on. Violence rarely solves anything; also, it merely displaces by force the political balances and ethnic/religious groups and doesn't solve the underlying issues.

___________________
Whenever you go and buy something, you are affecting someone somewhere, be it environment, a person, or a community - you're making a statement with what you buy. So make it a smart choice ... Its a big picture

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King The shah was also a stupid man. He had a chance to assassinate Khomeini in France.. and he didnt. From there, that towel head sent tape recordings about mass uprising from his comfy parisian cottage, urging iranians to overthrow their king. Like i said, the CANCER NEEDS TO BE EXCISED.

so according to you the world problems are solved by murdering people you don't like!
At least your ideology is very consistent with that mass murderer clown you have as your avatar.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium On the other hand, intervention in places like the former Yugoslavia may have prevented further bloodshed.

what intervention?????? what you saw/heard on bbc???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_theft_in_Kosovo

intervention???? intervention??????????




i'll leave now but i gotta say "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" -- Isaiah 5:20

jus ad bellum !!!! one day...... one day there will be reckoning, and on that day i will be the first one in line to collect on those who "intervened" on our children. on those who "liberated" our young and old, those who left us presents to this fucking day:


http://www.military.com/daily-news/...-explosion.html


http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society...13&nav_id=82203


you mother******s you. hide yourself behind your fancy words and your insta-knowledge, your democracy and your civil rights. what about Milica's rights ????

http://guskova.ru/misc/docs/drep_mr



forgive but never, ever forget !!!!

___________________
i wanna wipe my ass with mona lisa !!!

quote:

Battleships, aircraft carriers, minesweepers and submarines from 25 nations are converging on the strategically important Strait of Hormuz in an unprecedented show of force as Israel and Iran move towards the brink of war. ... In preparation for any pre-emptive or retaliatory action by Iran, warships from more than 25 countries, including the United States, Britain, France, Saudi Arabia and the UAE, will today begin an annual 12-day exercise.

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ran-strike.html

quote:

"Today our country is moving towards drought, which is partly unintentional due to industry and partly intentional, as a result of the enemy destroying the clouds moving towards our country and this is a war that Iran is going to overcome," Mr Ahmadinejad said in a speech in the Caspian Sea city of Gonbad-e Kavus to mark its registration as a Unesco World Heritage site.

Read more:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ain-clouds.html

OT: Someone predicting that there will be a stock market crash tomorrow. Not sure if the markets predicted what will happen or the markets have to do down because of what the FED said last week. Lets see if this person predictions will be right. Time for me to lose more money

Last edited by jester on Sep-16-2012 at 14:38