quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King I could have sworn you once mentioned you were ashkanazi jew... but i guess i am mistaken. In any event... like I said.... ARAB jews deserve that land...meaning people of your ancestry if you arent lying... not euro or russian jews that claim that land as theirs today. It is a middle eastern region of earth.. and it belongs to people of middle eastern origin if historical "justifications" are to be brought to light. Again...try not to get too angry at people who think you are a religious extremist or a racist...you are the sole instigator of that though in other people's minds.... Remember...your mother has a persian rug ass as well... you are spehardic arent you? P.S Boro Kose modaret bokhor.

aaaaaahahahahhahahaa he got you there Miky!!!!

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quote:

Originally posted by tathi Yoepus that is a great improvement on your last post, and i appreciate it.

Oh goody goody, do I get any rewards? How about a brownie?

Let me point out one major error in your logic before I rant:

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The palestinian extremist groups also believe they are defending their country's security, they believe they are being invaded, occupied and oppressed by a military superior enemy. As i have stated before, terrorism is subjective to perception.

I'd established earlier that the primary reason for a goverment is to protect its citizens. To do this it carries an exclusive (read monopoly) power on its citizens.

They might claim they are defending their country but their is a moral and philosophical difference when 'groups' of their own merit claim to defend a nation, as opposed to that nation's government.

The Palestinian terrorist (why use the word extremist.. are they any true Palestinian extremist groups that after all never engaged in terror? Why the facad?) are have no connection (officially) with the OFFICIAL Palestinian GOVERNMENT.

The Palestinian government officialy does not support these groups, which means they do not act legally for the Palestinians. They do not have the weight of the Palestinian people, the Palestinian nation behind them. Therefore they can not claim they are defending their country, as it is not of their duty. Regardless if they are acting as terrorist or not, the Palestinian extremist can not retort that they are defending their people, it is the EXCLUSIVE job of their government to do that.

This is how our modern philosophy of governments is understood, as initally outlined by Rousseau and Locke, do you understand the philosophy to government at all, and do you agree with the modern philosophy of government?

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What was the point in this? Please don't ruin your posts with this dogmatic bullshit in the future.

Its called humor, to bad you lack it. I'd ask you won't ruin your post with careless cursing.

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Have you read the Geneva Convention?

I've read it so many times you wouldn't believe. I know it by heart. Preservation of art and culture is the Hague convention (http://www.icomos.org/hague/hague.convention.html).. though I'm doubtful you could make a successful case defining pre-school paperdrawings as cultural propoperty.

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Let me make something clear I DO NOT condone terrorism of ANY kind, I am just trying to make a point that everything is not so black and white, thinking in terms of dualisms, although common to our cultures is pathetically stupid, "Good" and "Evil" are both concepts.

Well your making a dumb point. Yes nothing (well no, a few things actually are) is ever black and white, but it is neither the murky grey you try and make it. Conflicts, politics, and morals do have critera they can be judged against. For a heartless guy like you, you should try to at least adopt a basic philosophy, perhaps utalitarianism (John Strauss), maybe it will make you see more clearly.

I see no need in your attempt to murky the word terrorism which is black to something grey and fairly subjective, it is fairly clear to all of us in our midns what is acceptable and what is not as terrorism. It is still very hard for me to understand how a learned man like you can still equate the Offical Government actions of the State of Israel with the terrorist acts commited by unofficial 'extremist' groups of an undefined Palestinian territory.

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I'd established earlier that the primary reason for a goverment is to protect its citizens. To do this it carries an exclusive (read monopoly) power on its citizens.

Ahh, you have a PhD in Political Science? I thought the government's primary objective is to "govern" its citizens.

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Government The system or form by which a community or other political unit is governed

You would be right if the military staged a coup and maintained a totalitarian state

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They might claim they are defending their country but their is a moral and philosophical difference when 'groups' of their own merit claim to defend a nation, as opposed to that nation's government.

The Israeli authority are doing everything they can to undermine the Palestinian authority, the Palestinian people have lost faith in their government and taken "justice" into their own hands.

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The Palestinian government officialy does not support these groups, which means they do not act legally for the Palestinians.

And Israel is acting legally under the UN?

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They do not have the weight of the Palestinian people, the Palestinian nation behind them. Therefore they can not claim they are defending their country, as it is not of their duty. Regardless if they are acting as terrorist or not, the Palestinian extremist can not retort that they are defending their people, it is the EXCLUSIVE job of their government to do that.

Think of the puppet government in Afghanistan, does it have the popular support of the Afghani people? Is it the Afghanistani army "protecting" it's people or is it UN peace keepers?

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This is how our modern philosophy of governments is understood, as initally outlined by Rousseau and Locke, do you understand the philosophy to government at all, and do you agree with the modern philosophy of government?

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Philosophy Any personal belief about how to live or how to deal with a situation

If everyone agreed in one philosophy why are there so many? I do not believe in your philosophy.

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Its called humor, to bad you lack it.

You find terrorizing children funny? I'm glad i don't have your sense of humour.

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I've read it so many times you wouldn't believe. I know it by heart. Preservation of art and culture is the Hague convention though I'm doubtful you could make a successful case defining pre-school paperdrawings as cultural propoperty.

So that makes it OK?

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RESOLUTION 1261 (1999) Strongly condemns the targeting of children in situations of armed conflict, including killing and maiming, sexual violence, abduction and forced displacement, recruitment and use of children in armed conflict in violation of international law, and attacks on objects protected under international law, including places that usually have a significant presence of children such as schools and hospitals, and calls on all parties concerned to put an end to such practices

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Well your making a dumb point. Yes nothing (well no, a few things actually are) is ever black and white, but it is neither the murky grey you try and make it.

Is it really a dumb point? To you it might be, but think about others on this forum..

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Conflicts, politics, and morals do have critera they can be judged against.

What benchmark would you compare Israel's policy on the redistribution of Palestines land? Perhaps Zimbabwe?

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For a heartless guy like you, you should try to at least adopt a basic philosophy, perhaps utalitarianism (John Strauss), maybe it will make you see more clearly.

I am heartless for defending the underdog? I can see why a Social Darwinist doesn't like my egalitarian point of view.

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I see no need in your attempt to murky the word terrorism which is black to something grey and fairly subjective, it is fairly clear to all of us in our midns what is acceptable and what is not as terrorism.

Hah, if it is fairly clear, why are we discussing this? Why have i exposed the hypocrisy of all your posts and others with your ideals?

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It is still very hard for me to understand how a learned man like you can still equate the Offical Government actions of the State of Israel with the terrorist acts commited by unofficial 'extremist' groups of an undefined Palestinian territory.

It is hard for me to understand why people force their collective opinion onto others

Good to see you have raised the bar of this intellectual debate You are lucky i didn't have much time to reply to your post because there is a good doco on TeeVee soon

Enjoy :-)

BTW, Israel has just killed a VERY VERY senior Hamas official. No innocent people were killed in that case. Don't know what will that accomplish, but at least you can see that Israely military indeed tries to only kill those directly responsible for suicide bombings.(I do realize that innocent people still die on Palestinian side, having said that, Israely military does try to avoid that)

Though I'm sure you pro-palestinians will cry again that Israel shouldn't target terrorists.

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quote:

Originally posted by tathi Ahh, you have a PhD in Political Science? I thought the government's primary objective is to "govern" its citizens.

Actually, I think the ideal objective for a government is to serve its citizens rather than govern or rule over them. What's that saying in the US constitution, A Government of the People, by the People, and for the People?

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The Israeli authority are doing everything they can to undermine the Palestinian authority, the Palestinian people have lost faith in their government and taken "justice" into their own hands.

Here's where you kind of lose me, if the Palestinian people have lost faith in their government and fully support the actions of Hamas then they should elect representatives of Hamas to represent their cause, and officially support the methods with which they will achieve a resolution of their plight. The fact of the matter is that they elected Mazen, and the PLO to represent them. If they desire a more radical approach then they can't have the government on one side negotiating with Israel and seeking a diplomatic approach to the probelm while on the other side they actively support Hamas using violent means to achieve resolution. Who's it going to be? You can't have the Israeli government brokering deals with Hamas, the PLO, Al-Fatah, etc., in order to resolve the crisis. There can only be one representative of the Palestinian people and they must have complete control over the Palestinians and the ability to dictate its terms to Israel. Now I know you can say something like "oh but Israel isn't let the PLO police the Palestinians, they can't do anything, etc." but the fact of the matter is that even when Israel has been completely withdrawn from all the Palestinian territories, the PLO has been ineffective in controlling the militants. Mazen must take a harder stance against them if he wants to succeed diplomatically with the Israelis.

That being said, I would be careful characterizing Hamas's actions as "Palestinian's taking justice into their own hands." The fact of the matter is that the majority of the Palestinian people DO NOT support Hamas's actions and their role in the entire crisis.

http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2003/p8a.html

You cannot have 20% of the population speaking for the other 80% of the people. Additionally, many Palestinians do not support Hamas's hardline stance on many issues:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3065299.stm

Hamas is in effect attempting to impose its hardline stance on the rest of the population on such issues such as the refugee right of return. Even if the majority of the refugees don't want such a right, it still fights for that right, without any compromise, based upon ideaological principles. It all boils down to the simple fact that the Palestinians elected officials to represent them. They must let THEM and not anyone else represent them.

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quote:

Originally posted by tathi Ahh, you have a PhD in Political Science? I thought the government's primary objective is to "govern" its citizens.

No I simply have a Bachelor in Political Science, but I don't see what my education level has to do when I say something to the point. I have had professors with which I both disagreed and agreed with, and often times I see their arguments are not any stronger then many on these forums.

And yes, current rational logic tells us that a government only came to be because people needed to come together to defend themselves against others. You don't even have to believe that the government is good for the people (alla Hobbes) to believe and follow it. However it is quiet necessary that once you agree to live under a government you follows its rule wether you disagree or agree with its actions. There can be no government if people on every decision follow their emotions and obey it or not. Imagine for yourself what life would be like if ALL people chose to obey whatever law they wanted, and neglect the others. What type of world would that be?

I'll tell you what world that would be, it would be the world of the extremist Palestinian groups...

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You would be right if the military staged a coup and maintained a totalitarian state

No it doesn't matter.. even a bad government such as North Korea takes responsibility for its actions and makes sure there is not rival group with in the nation speaking on its behalf.

The Palestinian problem in this sense is similar to Columbia which has in de facto many goverments over one country, creating an uneasy anarchy.

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The Israeli authority are doing everything they can to undermine the Palestinian authority, the Palestinian people have lost faith in their government and taken "justice" into their own hands.

Although I don't agree with you on this point.
Using the premise of war, it is usually an objective to destroy the other nation's goverment (as opposed to its people). Still you are crossing a VERY VERY dangerous line when you let people "take justice into their own hands". You know the KKK, the american terrorist group, took justice into their own hands when they lost faith in their government to protect them from black people who they believed would change the dynamics of their society, so they launced a terror campagin in the South and killed many innocent black people. But despite wide-popular support in the South the Federal government was able to crack-down and restore law and order, which only the US government after all shoudl administer.

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And Israel is acting legally under the UN?

This is a completely different question, and I can make a pretty good case that the Israel is actually acting in accordance with the baseless and collapsing organization we like to call the UN. On the othernote, I can't see anyone even making a halfass attempt at claiming the Palestinian terrorist groups are acting leagally under the UN.

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Think of the puppet government in Afghanistan, does it have the popular support of the Afghani people? Is it the Afghanistani army "protecting" it's people or is it UN peace keepers?

A government does not have to have popular support to commit its purpose. In fact the best governments are the one who can act without popular support to protect themselves (such as UK in Iraq).

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If everyone agreed in one philosophy why are there so many? I do not believe in your philosophy.

Look I'm not saying agree to one philosophy. I'm just saying PICK ONE. Because right now you have none, you are moving through life thinking appels and oranges can be equated, everything that is white can become black, and everything black can become white.

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You find terrorizing children funny? I'm glad i don't have your sense of humour.

Ya you know what, I do find it funny. I really do find it funny that someone had the idea of calling some pissed off soldiers wiping their asses with radicial elementy school drawings terrorism when you compare that act (which did not kill anyone) with some of the horrible tradegies that are going around in that area. How come you can't find the humor in that?

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Is it really a dumb point? To you it might be, but think about others on this forum..

I am thinking about others on this forum, and I still say IT IS A DUMB POINT. We know what terrorism is, and we know the Israelis are not conducted it as a matter of policy. Wether we supprot the Israelis are not, this SHOULD be indisputable...

In fact why are we disputing it. I have defended my claim very well, now its your turn to make your case. Equate Israel with terrorism. And when I mean terrorism I mean gun-ho, murder civilians in the street for the sake of murdering civilians in the street type terrorism.

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It is hard for me to understand why people force their collective opinion onto others

Ya I don't get this either.. its obviously a big waste of time. I think it is beause people like to feel smart when they think in their own mind they have made superior arguments to others...
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quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus A government does not have to have popular support to commit its purpose. In fact the best governments are the one who can act without popular support to protect themselves (such as UK in Iraq).

And this is actually a very good and important point.

Before some fool jumps on it saying "this is undemocratic" I'd like to explain it.

Every sane nation understands that its people as a whole are not qualified to charter its course, because the general people lack (1) information and (2) professional skills to make decisions. In a democracy, what people do is elect leaders who have the qualifications and judgment to advance the nation's causes.

That's why we have Congress and Parliament and whatever, as well as executive leaders, in every democratized country. Great point Yoepus!

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quote:

Originally posted by Eugene And this is actually a very good and important point. Before some fool jumps on it saying "this is undemocratic" I'd like to explain it. Every sane nation understands that its people as a whole are not qualified to charter its course, because the general people lack (1) information and (2) professional skills to make decisions. In a democracy, what people do is elect leaders who have the qualifications and judgment to advance the nation's causes. That's why we have Congress and Parliament and whatever, as well as executive leaders, in every democratized country. Great point Yoepus!

Case in point: FDR vs. the American people in WW2. Now I laugh at anybody who says FDR LET pearl harbor happen in order to bring america into the war, but FDR was a staunch supporter of aiding Britain with the lend-lease program and manipulating the American public to support britain when most wanted to remain neutral in the face of another "european" conflict.

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Durafei BTW, Israel has just killed a VERY VERY senior Hamas official. No innocent people were killed in that case.

Good to see extrajudicial "justice" has been served

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Don't know what will that accomplish,

Someone got a promotion

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TranceGiant I tried talking to a wall the other day. i must admit it was easier than arguing with "pro-palestinian" people on this board.

I also talked with a wall yesterday, i must admit it was harder than arguing with the "pro-israeli" people on this board