quote:

Originally posted by melech_mike I'd like to somehow bring this discussion back onto topic. As much fun as talking about who's idiocy is greater between the left and the right is, i'd like for others to take shots at answering the key questions this thread brought up. I have heard Az's answer's (which i felt didn't fully answer any of the questions posed), now i'd like to hear yours Cyrus, ahamalek, nalin and tranceaholic. Please do not try and divert this back off topic. I'm seriously am looking for answers!

why are you looking for these answers?

what do you plan to accomplish with these facts? it still does not proove your thesis that all arabs are evil and they want to kill all the jews as you believe..

why not deal with present issues and try to make the world a better place?.. people = people and thats that.. why dont you forget your racist dwindling and move on

quote:

Originally posted by rupert Maybe some elements have a element of empathy for the arabs but it is difficult to have empathy for people you are conditioned to regard as untermensch. I once watched a news broadcast where they did a vox pop of people on the street and they asked them about what they thought of the palestinians and one guy said "they should all be exterminated." He said it, its not propaganda I am not making it up. He would have done his stint in the army what he have done to some raghead he thought was a terrorist. the soldier wasnt even looking at them or harrassing them, the little girls were beneath the guys radar but still they were terrified. Why? Because they know what the IDF are capable of.

Explain that last word in the first part of my quote... If you're saying what I think you're saying then you are pretty much contradicting most of your claims.

The second part, yep I am greatly saddened to see that a great part of the Israelis would like to see all Arabs dead... I consider those ignorant, these are the rigthwing nutcases Az has been talking about.... Another great part would gladley have them all transferred to nearby countries.
Wait, wait a sec... Rupert, you didn't happen to see any of them Iraqy or Palestine people shouting death to Bush and the Americans or death to the Israelis? Do you honestly believe that most Palestinians would not want all of the Israelis dead right now?

As for the third part, good guess. I'll present a question and my own guess in return...

Say we were both studying in the same class, we are known not to like each other since last year. I decide to play a trick on you and tell the teacher you just threw a paper ball at me and cursed me and my parents... I'm a loveable, cte little boy and cute student, who would not believe me? You are going to eb send away.
Why would the palestine people do that? First because they are manipulated to it, second because they would like to see all Israelis dead by any means necessary. Why would the PA and other Palestine organizations do it? Because I know they are capable of it.
My own guess is that those little girls could just as easily have heard too many stories from their parents, some true, some false, some exaggarated, it's also quite possible their parents have heard too many stories from some terrorist or their local (Muslim preacher, don't know the word in English) who might have also heard too many stories from God knows who.
Yes there are cases of scumbags mistreating poor Palestine civillians but how can you generalize?

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quote:

Originally posted by oDrori Yes there are cases of scumbags mistreating poor Palestine civillians but how can you generalize?

thats definately true odori.. it definately goes both ways.. the point is you cannot generalise and i feel this is the reason WHY the war shouldnt go on.. FACTS are that

most terrorists if not all are arab

but 99.99999999 percent (lol its not a statistic) of arabs are NOT terrorists.. soo there is no reason why to target an entire arab country.

so as melech mike says that all arabs are evil (or at least insinuates it) its a derogatory generalization which means nothing

an "untermensch" is a German word for sub-human. It was a term used by the Nazis to define people they wanted to get rid of Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill.

Sure plenty of arabs want to kill westerners, Jews, Americans etc, never said they didnt, but the original post was about why Israel was so good, we can never do wrong, the arabs are terrorists, the arabs claims have no legitimacy, we didnt steal their land, we are entitled to their territory because the arabs states lost the war in 1967. So that is why I mention Israeli statements and actions not arab ones.

I could have gone on, the Tourism Minister who the PFLP assassinated who called the arabs vermin and wanted their removal from the occupied territories. Or even the boss Sharon who once said Jordan is Palestine. People seldom change. In all likelihood given his actions he still believes that is true.

quote:

Yes there are cases of scumbags mistreating poor Palestine civillians but how can you generalize?

I dont need to generalize. The system basically forces them to act in a certain way. The way I look at it people fall into three categories

1) the guys that go along to get along (most people)
2) true believers who go out of their way to internalize the values of their masters
3) people who act according to their conscience even if doing that adversely affects them.

So the average IDF guy has no love for the arabs, would like to see them disappear but wont go out of their way to commit atrocities. If something bad happens to arabs they can console themselves with sentiment like "bad things happen in war, we were following orders, we have rules against war crimes, im just a soldier" the fact that they are directly responsible for the occupation and the fact that it is the occupation which leads to suffering isnt allowed to enter their minds.

Then there are the soldiers who believe inherently in the inferiority of the arabs and want to get rid of them. Like the guy I quoted before, i didnt even provide the full quote. He was an officer and do you think his soldiers wouldnt have come to think like their commander. There is plenty of information of torture, murder and wanton destruction committed by IDF and their proxies in the Lebanon war.

Then their are those who refuse to have any part in the whole process and dont serve and those are the only people who arent complicit.

The system says that Israel is a Jewish state, every policy has to reinforce that fundamental principle. In a Jewish state the goal of the state is to protect Jewish interests and if they conflict with arab interests guess who loses out. That is why nothing ever really gets done to dismantle the settlements because although they can talk about equality under the law, that is all it is talk.

Deep down inside many Jews want peace but lack the resolve to make the tough decisions to get that outcome. They know that if they dismantled the settlements then the Jews may as well pack up and leave Haifa or Tel Aviv.

What the fuck is the thing now with all arabs being killer? why don't you guys show some fucking respect.

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hey melech mike, is this what you believe right here


"I don't know something called 'International Principles.' I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian childs existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian, I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian woman is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do, but we tell others what they shall do."
Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel

quote:

Originally posted by hadi ****** hey melech mike, is this what you believe right here "I don't know something called 'International Principles.' I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian childs existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian, I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian woman is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do, but we tell others what they shall do." Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel

I honestly hope you can back that up

quote:

Originally posted by hadi ****** hey melech mike, is this what you believe right here "I don't know something called 'International Principles.' I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian childs existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian, I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian woman is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do, but we tell others what they shall do." Ariel Sharon, Prime Minister of Israel

Wow I'd like to see the source for this ... hehe sorry but I'm not going to believe it until I see it.

thats what i found

I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child's existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do." Ariel Sharon, current Israeli Prime Minister, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956

"You can call me anything you like. Call me a monster or a murderer. Better a live Judeo-Nazi than a dead saint. Even if you prove to me that the present war in Lebanon is a dirty immoral war, I don't care. Even if Galilee is shelled again by Katyushas in a year's time, I don't really care. We shall start another war, kill and destroy more and more, until they will have had enough.

Let them tremble, let them call us a mad state. Let them understand that we are a wild country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal, that we might go crazy if one of our children is murdered, just one! If anyone even raises his hand against us we'll take away half his land and burn the other half, including the oil. We might use nuclear arms.

Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it." Ariel Sharon to Amos Oz, editor of Davar, Dec. 17, 1982

"I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it." - Ariel Sharon, 1982

"After we become a strong force as the result of the creation of the state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine." - David Ben-Gurion

"We must use terror, assassination, land confiscation and cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." - from the Koenig Report

"Sharon was a killer obsessed with hatred of Palestinians. I had promised Arafat that his people would not get any harm. Sharon, however, ignored this commitment entirely. Sharon's word is worth nil." - Ambassador Philip Habib President Ronald Reagan's Special Middle East Envoy in 1982

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quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek thats what i found I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian child's existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do." Ariel Sharon, current Israeli Prime Minister, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956 "You can call me anything you like. Call me a monster or a murderer. Better a live Judeo-Nazi than a dead saint. Even if you prove to me that the present war in Lebanon is a dirty immoral war, I don't care. Even if Galilee is shelled again by Katyushas in a year's time, I don't really care. We shall start another war, kill and destroy more and more, until they will have had enough. Let them tremble, let them call us a mad state. Let them understand that we are a wild country, dangerous to our surroundings, not normal, that we might go crazy if one of our children is murdered, just one! If anyone even raises his hand against us we'll take away half his land and burn the other half, including the oil. We might use nuclear arms. Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it." Ariel Sharon to Amos Oz, editor of Davar, Dec. 17, 1982 "I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it." - Ariel Sharon, 1982 "After we become a strong force as the result of the creation of the state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine." - David Ben-Gurion "We must use terror, assassination, land confiscation and cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." - from the Koenig Report "Sharon was a killer obsessed with hatred of Palestinians. I had promised Arafat that his people would not get any harm. Sharon, however, ignored this commitment entirely. Sharon's word is worth nil." - Ambassador Philip Habib President Ronald Reagan's Special Middle East Envoy in 1982

This is outrageous!!!This has to be taken out of context or misinterpreted in some way,I can not believe that Sharon would say something like this!Where did you find this?

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quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it.

hmm, even he himself calls it dirty work
btw, my cousin gave me that quote, but he is at school so i cant get teh source atm, but ahlamalek's post backs it up