All the free iraqi's really is a wonderful thing, I just wish we didn't have to kill so many to free them.

Oh look the US freed Ahlamalek, JohnSmith, and Drug_Tito's little cousins! Now how are we going to explain to those little kids that their older cousins didn't want to free them because war is never the answer, you know?

Cmon guys ... the US is doing this for SELFISH reasons. As such we should put the little guys back in jail, reinstate saddam huessein as dictator for life, withdraw all US forces, and allow the systematic statewide torture to continue!!! Btw, did anybody see captured tapes of Iraqi citizens beign tortured with electricity and what not? It's SICK!

quote:

Originally posted by occrider Cmon guys ... the US is doing this for SELFISH reasons. As such we should put the little guys back in jail, reinstate saddam huessein as dictator for life, withdraw all US forces, and allow the systematic statewide torture to continue!!! Btw, did anybody see captured tapes of Iraqi citizens beign tortured with electricity and what not? It's SICK!

its like they're reading the communist manifesto, as if the american capitalist pigs are all about self interests and could care less if they step all over the little people in their way.
I'm glad america has the heart it does for the people of the world and their well being.
I'm thrilled to see the iraqis celebrating the elimination of their old regime, much like that of the afghan celebrations. i hope america will continue its great humanitarian aid and reconstruction of both countries. i also hope it can be appreciated, and even if not, i know the best has been done for the people of iraq

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by Izzy its like they're reading the communist manifesto, as if the american capitalist pigs are all about self interests and could care less if they step all over the little people in their way. I'm glad america has the heart it does for the people of the world and their well being. I'm thrilled to see the iraqis celebrating the elimination of their old regime, much like that of the afghan celebrations. i hope america will continue its great humanitarian aid and reconstruction of both countries. i also hope it can be appreciated, and even if not, i know the best has been done for the people of iraq

I am glad that these children were freed. But for every child freed, many more have and will die becuase of this war.

Dont look at specific cases in order to justify your pro-war stance. Look at the the big picture...... PEOPLE ARE DYING!

this regime could be removed without coalition forces bombing the country to death. Without an invasion led by someone who told the world to basically fuck off.

Ghandi defeated the entire British empire without a single bullet.

I think if one man can do that, there are many alternative ways in which peace and justice can prevail in this world.
With respect to Hussein, he could have been assasinated or removed without heavy fighting in that nation. Although it would be a process, many people would ultimately be saved.

___________________
"This place isn't big enough for me to blow it up."
-MARCO V

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King I am glad that these children were freed. But for every child freed, many more have and will die becuase of this war. Dont look at specific cases in order to justify your pro-war stance. Look at the the big picture...... PEOPLE ARE DYING! this regime could be removed without coalition forces bombing the country to death. Without an invasion led by someone who told the world to basically fuck off. Ghandi defeated the entire British empire without a single bullet. I think if one man can do that, there are many alternative ways in which peace and justice can prevail in this world. With respect to Hussein, he could have been assasinated or removed without heavy fighting in that nation. Although it would be a process, many people would ultimately be saved.

You speak so confidentely about achieving the unknown. Saddam has managed to maintain control over Iraq for decades ... to say that it would be an easy thing to assassinate him is optimistic. It's been tried before and Saddam learned from his mistakes in making virtually no public appearances. And who would you suggest assassinating him? The CIA would never be able to get close to him and its illegal for them to even make the attempt. So what would be an alternative of assassination to remove him from power? And how long would it take to achieve this and how many people do you think he would have murdered in this time?

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King But for every child freed, many more have and will die becuase of this war.

it is of my opinion that less innocent iraqi men, women and children will have been killed by this operation then would have under saddam's government

___________________
If God is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King I am glad that these children were freed. But for every child freed, many more have and will die becuase of this war. Dont look at specific cases in order to justify your pro-war stance. Look at the the big picture...... PEOPLE ARE DYING!

1) lets, for a moment, assume that the 'iraqi body count' counter thing is correct. what does it stand at, roughly 1200? now lets unrealistically assume all of them are children. therefore, if for every single child freed, many more will die (according to you), then at best we can only put the total number of freed iraqi children at 1200.
obviously all of the above is wrong, therefore, shut the hell up you fucking drama queen.

2) look at the big picture...people are dying? people are dying all over the world every fucking day you moron. they die from drinking too much alcohol and driving, they die because some crack psycho needs to rob a bank to feed his habit. as the wise al pacino once said... YOU CAN GET KILLED WALKING YOUR DOGGY


anti-war activists are such pussy drama queens.

___________________
c o n : f u s e d

When reading stories like this, while yes, it most certainly is warming, just keep in mind the bigger picture.

Firstly, the hearts and minds victory was always going to be a lot easier in the Shiite south than in central or northern Baghdad due to the years of horrendous oppression they've faced at the hands of Saddam Hussein (the Kurds in the north have been similarly oppressed, but given the fractured idealogies - I think there's 4 different Kurdish groups vying for power in the soon-to-be power vacuum - and the likely rejection of calls for the creation of Kurdistan and the socialistic re-integration of Kurdish oil-fields into the rest of Iraq so as to benefit "all" Iraqis, there's less chance of celebration up north for the time being). But given the somewhat "ambivelent" welcome for the US troops in the south - particularly Basra - you can only wonder just how keen the average Iraqi is about this US invasion:

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationw...worldnews-print
http://www.uexpress.com/tedrall/

Though of course, the only news stations I've seen reports about Iraqi dissent on are the BBC and the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Company), who have both not shied away from showing images of Iraqi civilians comfronting coalition troops. At best the situation in the south seems relatively low-key, despite scenes of both protest and some joy, as the story posted at the top represents.

Nonetheless, we should expect the days immediately following the confirmed toppling of the Saddam Hussein regime to be the most "joyful" for the Iraqi citizens, when they finally realise they are free. However, that is surely just the beginning of the hearts and minds campaign. We must keep in mind how long Iraqi patience is going to last with the military occupation, likely to last 6 months - 2 years:

http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs04052003.html

I don't think there's any question about the average Iraqi disliking Saddam Hussein, but that is not to say they'll welcome the US military occupation either. The Fedayeen represents a reason why hatred of Saddam Hussein does not necessarily equate to support for the US "liberators":

http://www.ucsbdailynexus.com/opinion/2003/4816.html
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/Prin...4634297,00.html

These are volunteer conscripts fighting not for Hussein, but for the freedom of Iraq. Remember, these Shiite people are inherently distrustful of US claims to "freedom" given what happened following the conclusion of the Gulf War, where Shiite resistence fighters were encouraged to rise up to the Baath party but ended up being horribly crushed by the regrouping Iraqi army. They aren't likely to be easily swayed by the US propoganda effort (including pamphlet drops and the controlling of the Iraqi airwaves - in many parts of the country at least). So even in the parts of Iraq where you'd expect jubilation to be at its greatest, there are still reasons to question just how the Iraqi citizens will warm to this invasion.

Then, even after military occupation, there is still the question of just how "representative" this "democratic" Iraqi government is likely to be. Anyone who believes the Iraqi government is going to be selected by a mandate presented to the masses is kidding themselves. The coalition aren't going to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on the war and then the rebuilding afterwards just to let a "democratically elected" government take control of Iraq. Rather, they will attempt to form a "representative" government - hand-picking members from each of Iraqs ethnic groups - regardless of how much support there is for them amongst the average Iraqi population. In fact, the front runner to lead this new Iraqi government - Ahmed Chalabi - has been slammed by a CIA report suggesting that he has absolutely no support amongst the average Iraqi citizens:

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID...07-055713-8345r

But so long as he looks after US interests and reverts back to trading oil in US dollars I don't suppose the Whitehouse or the Pentagon care too much.

In the thread that Tiesto14 posted entitled "Iraq to Use Chemical Weapons.... U Morons" (or something like that) I posed a series of questions that need to be answered satisfactorily before I could support this war - and that was assuming Iraq had large stockpiles of weapons, when it becoming increasingly obvious that they do not. Still, even as the war enters end game, none of these questions (about the future of the Iraqi government, the politics of the Arab world in general, how the removal of Saddam is likely to increase security and so on) look like being answered.

Oh, and before we get too carried away with how brilliant these American liberators are and about how much they care for the oppressed people of the world.....

quote:

I'm thrilled to see the iraqis celebrating the elimination of their old regime, much like that of the afghan celebrations.

.... let's not forget the state the Afghanistan is in right now. How long before the Americans get bored of paying for the "liberation" of the Iraqi people (which will cost tax-payers hundereds of billions of dollars over a period as long as a decade), the funds are withdrawn and the plight of the Iraqi people is forgotten?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2405191.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2460089.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2759789.stm

The war for Iraq may be coming to an end, but the real challenges lay ahead. We'll see how many Iraqis are dancing in the rubble that was once their streets in 6 months time.

___________________
http://eschatonnow.blogspot.com/

quote:

Originally posted by Renegade When reading stories like this, while yes, it most certainly is warming, just keep in mind the bigger picture. Firstly, the hearts and minds victory was always going to be a lot easier in the Shiite south than in central or northern Baghdad due to the years of horrendous oppression they've faced at the hands of Saddam Hussein (the Kurds in the north have been similarly oppressed, but given the fractured idealogies - I think there's 4 different Kurdish groups vying for power in the soon-to-be power vacuum - and the likely rejection of calls for the creation of Kurdistan and the socialistic re-integration of Kurdish oil-fields into the rest of Iraq so as to benefit "all" Iraqis, there's less chance of celebration up north for the time being). But given the somewhat "ambivelent" welcome for the US troops in the south - particularly Basra - you can only wonder just how keen the average Iraqi is about this US invasion: http://www.newsday.com/news/nationw...worldnews-print http://www.uexpress.com/tedrall/ Though of course, the only news stations I've seen reports about Iraqi dissent on are the BBC and the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Company), who have both not shied away from showing images of Iraqi civilians comfronting coalition troops. At best the situation in the south seems relatively low-key, despite scenes of both protest and some joy, as the story posted at the top represents.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle....storyID=2534272

I think that articles dated a week or two ago are going to be innaccurate in judging Iraqi reaction since the country at that point in time was still firmly in the grip of the regime. Here is your Baghdad reaction however.

quote:

Nonetheless, we should expect the days immediately following the confirmed toppling of the Saddam Hussein regime to be the most "joyful" for the Iraqi citizens, when they finally realise they are free. However, that is surely just the beginning of the hearts and minds campaign. We must keep in mind how long Iraqi patience is going to last with the military occupation, likely to last 6 months - 2 years: http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs04052003.html I don't think there's any question about the average Iraqi disliking Saddam Hussein, but that is not to say they'll welcome the US military occupation either. The Fedayeen represents a reason why hatred of Saddam Hussein does not necessarily equate to support for the US "liberators": http://www.ucsbdailynexus.com/opinion/2003/4816.html http://politics.guardian.co.uk/Prin...4634297,00.html These are volunteer conscripts fighting not for Hussein, but for the freedom of Iraq. Remember, these Shiite people are inherently distrustful of US claims to "freedom" given what happened following the conclusion of the Gulf War, where Shiite resistence fighters were encouraged to rise up to the Baath party but ended up being horribly crushed by the regrouping Iraqi army. They aren't likely to be easily swayed by the US propoganda effort (including pamphlet drops and the controlling of the Iraqi airwaves - in many parts of the country at least). So even in the parts of Iraq where you'd expect jubilation to be at its greatest, there are still reasons to question just how the Iraqi citizens will warm to this invasion. Then, even after military occupation, there is still the question of just how "representative" this "democratic" Iraqi government is likely to be. Anyone who believes the Iraqi government is going to be selected by a mandate presented to the masses is kidding themselves. The coalition aren't going to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on the war and then the rebuilding afterwards just to let a "democratically elected" government take control of Iraq. Rather, they will attempt to form a "representative" government - hand-picking members from each of Iraqs ethnic groups - regardless of how much support there is for them amongst the average Iraqi population. In fact, the front runner to lead this new Iraqi government - Ahmed Chalabi - has been slammed by a CIA report suggesting that he has absolutely no support amongst the average Iraqi citizens: http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID...07-055713-8345r But so long as he looks after US interests and reverts back to trading oil in US dollars I don't suppose the Whitehouse or the Pentagon care too much. In the thread that Tiesto14 posted entitled "Iraq to Use Chemical Weapons.... U Morons" (or something like that) I posed a series of questions that need to be answered satisfactorily before I could support this war - and that was assuming Iraq had large stockpiles of weapons, when it becoming increasingly obvious that they do not. Still, even as the war enters end game, none of these questions (about the future of the Iraqi government, the politics of the Arab world in general, how the removal of Saddam is likely to increase security and so on) look like being answered. Oh, and before we get too carried away with how brilliant these American liberators are and about how much they care for the oppressed people of the world..... .... let's not forget the state the Afghanistan is in right now. How long before the Americans get bored of paying for the "liberation" of the Iraqi people (which will cost tax-payers hundereds of billions of dollars over a period as long as a decade), the funds are withdrawn and the plight of the Iraqi people is forgotten? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2405191.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2460089.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2759789.stm The war for Iraq may be coming to an end, but the real challenges lay ahead. We'll see how many Iraqis are dancing in the rubble that was once their streets in 6 months time.

Agreed the time after the war will be a tricky situation. However, the funds committed to rebuild Iraq are already committed and a part of the US budget. Keep in mind however that over $500 million in aid was committed to Afghanistan in 2002 and right now approximately $300 million has been slated to be provided for FY 2003. It's not just the US's fault however,

quote:

Unfulfilled promises Whoever pulls the strings though, little can be done in the way of rebuilding Afghanistan without one thing -- money. In January a meeting of donor nations in Tokyo agreed to provide an unprecedented $4.5 billion to Afghanistan over the next five years. As part of that deal a special trust fund administered by the World Bank was set up to help the government cover its annual budget, projected at around $460 million. All grand promises which, ministers in the new government say, have yet to be delivered on. With every passing day the need is ever more urgent and the warnings ever more stark. By failing to deliver on promised funds, Afghan officials warn, the international community is in danger of letting Afghanistan slide once again into the kind of chaos that allowed it to become a base for Osama bin Laden and his terrorist cohorts. Another failed state in Afghanistan could be an option the rest of the world can ill afford.

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/a...fghan.gov.feat/

quote:

Originally posted by sifntj0r 1) lets, for a moment, assume that the 'iraqi body count' counter thing is correct. what does it stand at, roughly 1200? now lets unrealistically assume all of them are children. therefore, if for every single child freed, many more will die (according to you), then at best we can only put the total number of freed iraqi children at 1200. obviously all of the above is wrong, therefore, shut the hell up you fucking drama queen. 2) look at the big picture...people are dying? people are dying all over the world every fucking day you moron. they die from drinking too much alcohol and driving, they die because some crack psycho needs to rob a bank to feed his habit. as the wise al pacino once said... YOU CAN GET KILLED WALKING YOUR DOGGY anti-war activists are such pussy drama queens.

ur the man, all these antiwar people can admitt they were wrong. fuckin idiots....... "open your mind, look at the whole picture" guess what Einstein, im watchin it live on TV!!!!!!!!!

___________________
"Trance, an art within itself, an art to listen to, an art composed within itself, can only be bettered by what the mind makes of it"