http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...38331_2003oct16

The Senate vote was a rare defeat for Bush in the GOP-led Congress, and it came after his intensive personal involvement. It indicated the depth of misgivings about the request among lawmakers of both parties and the constituents who have flooded them with protest letters and calls. Bush has maintained that a loan would confirm Middle Eastern suspicions of U.S. motives in Iraq, but Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) said no amount of money is going to change the minds of those who believe the administration invaded for Iraq's oil.


"I don't want to give in to a great lie. You can't buy your way out of this problem," said Graham, one of the five Republican co-authors of the Senate's loan provision. "You can't take $10 billion of taxpayer money, [while] people are losing their jobs, to buy your way out of a great lie. It would be terrible if the people of this country who have sacrificed so much wound up not getting a dime back."

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"Learn, child, to catch a hint through whatever agency it may be given. 'Sermons may be preached through stones." - Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, first series, p. 74, letter 31

This is bad imo. It will only hinder the efforts and ability of the US being able to secure other donor countries from providing aid and grants to Iraq as well. Also I think that much like the article stated, it will only increase middle east suspicion of the US's desire to rebuild the country and then get out.

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Originally posted by occrider Also I think that much like the article stated, it will only increase middle east suspicion of the US's desire to rebuild the country and then get out.

Well, I mean,

COME ONNNNN!!!

Like a sizeable portion of the American public, many of those Middle Easterners aren't completely ignorant.

Many of us have seen through Bush's charade from day 1.

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"Learn, child, to catch a hint through whatever agency it may be given. 'Sermons may be preached through stones." - Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, first series, p. 74, letter 31

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Originally posted by Trancer-X Well, I mean, COME ONNNNN!!! Like a sizeable portion of the American public, many of those Middle Easterners aren't completely ignorant. Many of us have seen through Bush's charade from day 1.

Ummm if money were the only thing that mattered, then making it a loan would be good thing for Bush and in his best interests. However, the entire reasoning for opposing a loan is that it would make it harder to rebuild the country and encourage other foreign donors from providing grants.

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Originally posted by occrider then making it a loan would be good thing for Bush and in his best interests.

Like any of us REALLY knows what Bush's best interests are?

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"Learn, child, to catch a hint through whatever agency it may be given. 'Sermons may be preached through stones." - Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, first series, p. 74, letter 31

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Originally posted by Trancer-X Like any of us REALLY knows what Bush's best interests are?

Well no we don't know what his best interests are. But if his interests are simply money alone, it stands to reason that he would want to make all reconstruction efforts as loans ... because then we would obviously be getting back all the billions that were sinking into the country. However, if his interests are to rebuild and stabilize the country, one would stand to reason that the best option in this particular case would be to make the loans grants. Thus, the Iraqi people are not paying off their international debt for the next 20 years or whatever, and we encourage other countries to forgive Iraqi debts and donate grants as well. If we start making all our reconstruction efforts loans, than other countries would start making their donations loans as well.

But at any rate, Bush's interests are a moot point in my opinion ... we chose to involve ourselves in this conflict and rebuild the country, therefore we should have to pay for it. I'm not a fan of making the grants loans ... but I do like how the loans can be turned into grants if other countries similarly forgive Iraqi debts.

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Originally posted by occrider we chose to involve ourselves in this conflict and rebuild the country, therefore we should have to pay for it.

The last time I checked, "We The People" really made no such decision.

As far as I'm concerned, we were tricked into war under the GUISE of patriotism.

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Originally posted by Trancer-X The last time I checked, "We The People" really made no such decision. As far as I'm concerned, we were tricked into war under the GUISE of patriotism.

Apathy or ignorance is no excuse to shirk responsibility. Now that we invaded we have a committment and obligation to the people of Iraq to stick it out to the very end.

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Originally posted by occrider Now that we invaded we have a committment and obligation to the people of Iraq to stick it out to the very end.

unfortunally i do agree with this. maybe a temp solution is to have the iraqi's themselves build iraq for less money, instead of US corporations like Haliburton.

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Originally posted by rizen unfortunally i do agree with this. maybe a temp solution is to have the iraqi's themselves build iraq for less money, instead of US corporations like Haliburton.

the senate is presently working on a bill that will disallow the reconstruction contracts in iraq to be given to corporations associated with senior administration officials. i suspect that it will be passed. then we may be able to finish our responsibility without dirty hands in the cookie jar.

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Originally posted by rizen unfortunally i do agree with this. maybe a temp solution is to have the iraqi's themselves build iraq for less money, instead of US corporations like Haliburton.

Yeah, well... unfortunately I do too. We definitely should feel obligated to clean up the mess we created, so it looks like we're going to be throwing alot of good money after bad.

Wouldn't it have been amazing though if we were able to spend $87 Billion on education? Or even something like government reforms to help control our burgeoning budget?

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"Learn, child, to catch a hint through whatever agency it may be given. 'Sermons may be preached through stones." - Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Letters from the Masters of Wisdom, first series, p. 74, letter 31

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Originally posted by occrider Ummm if money were the only thing that mattered, then making it a loan would be good thing for Bush and in his best interests. However, the entire reasoning for opposing a loan is that it would make it harder to rebuild the country and encourage other foreign donors from providing grants.

Oooooooooohh well.. tooooo bad for Mr. Bush. First of all, there's NO reason why, after such huge mislead of the American Public, why the heck, because of the actions of this president and the ignorants, do americans have to pay that amount. I mean, Its obvious, if it were for the good, then give it to the U.N. . He got himself into the whole, now he needs the UN latter to get out, and thats the only way out.

- Im very surprised though. After days hearing that it seemed that the senate would give him the money with out been a loan. More surprised because the whole senate is republican ( majority .. right? ).. Now it has to go through the house right?.

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