I've been reading several articles on the hotly debated issue of mentioning Christianity in the drafting of the EU Constitution. There are two very definite stances: one, which is led by France, is to be strictly secular; the other is led by a grouping of more "religious" countries such as Italy, Spain and Portugal, that want a reference to Christianity. Tonight, I read yet another article at the online edition of the Telegraph newspaper. According to that article, certain elder statesmen and Nobel laureates have been highly critical of France's position, which they view as being insistent on foisting secularism onto the masses. I wonder what your views are. Should there be a reference to religion in the EU Constitution or should it be largely empty of such sympathies? Also, in line with this, what are your views on France's desire to remove all religious references from French schools and institutions, making it more-or-less illegal to display a religious preference. For example, under this new law, Islamic women would not be permitted to wear a headcovering (hejab) while working in any French institutions. Could that be viewed as a lessening of personal freedoms? I personally am not at all religious, and so do not have an issue with increased secularism, but I wonder how these developments will be greeted by the ordinary man and woman in Europe. What are your thoughts?

Last edited by cfyoung4 on Nov-14-2003 at 05:48

I doubt you'll find many people here who would support putting references to Christianity in the EU Constitution.

Some of France's policies, as you've described them, strike me as a bit odd, though. However, I can't say as though I'm sufficiently educated on their particularities to form an intelligent stance on them.

In general, I think religious references in legal documents is a severe detriment to the legitimacy of those documents. However, I don't particularly support the type of Globalization the EU represents, so if they want to sabotage their legitimacy I certainly wouldn't be especially opposed to it.

Cheers,

Arbiter

France is somewhat right on track in my opinion. Government should neither endorse nor restrict religion in any way whatsoever. The US founding fathers laid the backdrop perfectly, the First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" ... Therefore the French government is correct in aspiring towards a secular government, however, it is incorrect in seeking to ban the head coverings. In accordance with the right to freedom of religion, the French governemnt cannot ban the hejab in as much as it cannot ban people from wearing catholic crosses. The one thing I love about the US government and its court system is its insistence for secularism ... for example the case of the pledge of alliegeance being sent to the Supreme court for a relatively minor phrase invoking God. Plus here's another good thing:

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/11/...ents/index.html

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quote:

Originally posted by cfyoung4 Also, in line with this, what are your views on France's desire to remove all religious references from French schools and institutions, making it more-or-less illegal to display a religious preference. For example, under this new law, Islamic women would not be permitted to wear a headcovering (hejab) while working in any French institutions

First of all I surprisingly( cause its still Francw we're talking about!) support the French efforts for a secular institution. The state should not intervene into one's personal faith whatsoever. Any reference would be pointing into a certain direction and would therefore be 'biased' (does th term fit in this context, Arbiter? ).

But there's a huge difference between removing religious smybols from public institutions and forcing all individuals to abandon their own religious symbols. The first rule concerns the STATE the second one the INDIVIDUAL. As mentioned above the STATE must not force any belief/faith upon the people, but every single individual is totally entitled to believe and practice his faith as long as it doesn't directly affect others.
There was a debate some months ago, concerning a Muslim teacher wearing the Hejab in her classroom. That's a bit of a dilemma in that it is both her personal excercise of religion but simultaneously a public proclamation, as she is also somewhat connected to the state in her role as a TEACHER. A bit similiar to the cross in the classroom. Should Muslim women "forget" about her religion when appearing in public positions?

Tough, tough

It would be pretty difficult (and unwise) to include anything condoning a specific religion in a constituion that's meant for several disparate cultures. I'm not necessarily saying that the constitution should explicitly forbid the possibility of individual nations adopting an "official" religion, but the states should be able to decide that for themselves. That is, the EU constitution should make no reference whatsoever to religion or spirituality and should allow the member states to draft their own preferences into their own individual constitutions.

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WTF is wrong with you guys?? You have a unique opprotunity to support something that is both (1) hateful to the French and (2) would bring about the end of the EU...

I am definetly for Christianty in their constitution! Take that you frog eaters!

I don't get it what's wrong with you guys?




On a serious note, I do belive there should be a reference to religion in a constiution, a reference similar to that in the US constiution whereby it protects the institution of religions from the power of the state.

Second, I have no problem with the EU acknowledging a God or divine power, however a specific religion is more conterversial. I'm just glad to hear Spain and Italy (both the US's allies in Iraq) now have a reason to sympathize with our hatered of the French.

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i'm not a religious guy, but I believe that Christianity should be included in the constitution... not for its religious implications but its cultural ones.

I think the countries that want Christianity in there are the same ones who don't want to see Turkey in the EU, and I don't see anything wrong with that. EUropean countries are different in essence to Turkey and other none Christian countries.

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quote:

Originally posted by occrider France is somewhat right on track in my opinion. Government should neither endorse nor restrict religion in any way whatsoever. The US founding fathers laid the backdrop perfectly, the First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" ... Therefore the French government is correct in aspiring towards a secular government, however, it is incorrect in seeking to ban the head coverings. In accordance with the right to freedom of religion, the French governemnt cannot ban the hejab in as much as it cannot ban people from wearing catholic crosses. The one thing I love about the US government and its court system is its insistence for secularism ... for example the case of the pledge of alliegeance being sent to the Supreme court for a relatively minor phrase invoking God. Plus here's another good thing: http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/11/...ents/index.html

werd

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus WTF is wrong with you guys?? You have a unique opprotunity to support something that is both (1) hateful to the French and (2) would bring about the end of the EU...

i like the french and the EU

I support France on this issue. The mention of the role of christianity in the EU constitution is rediculous. No normal country has such a thing. On the other hand, the issue of that teacher woman is a bit more unclear, but still, I don't believe teachers should present their religious symbols to the children.

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quote:

Originally posted by ahlamalek i'm not a religious guy, but I believe that Christianity should be included in the constitution... not for its religious implications but its cultural ones. I think the countries that want Christianity in there are the same ones who don't want to see Turkey in the EU, and I don't see anything wrong with that. EUropean countries are different in essence to Turkey and other none Christian countries.

I disagree, the fact is that Christianity is, well, a religion, and if you include it, then it will have religious 'implications' so to speak. The EU should not throw it's weight behind any specific religion, people should be free to practice whichever faith they choose (Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Buhidism, Traditional CHinese, whatever). If any refference to religion is made, it should relate to people's freedom to follow their own faith. The EU should be Secular imho.

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I do agree in a secularized Constitution for the EU, but I have deep misgivings concerning France's attempt to make the personal expression of religion illegal within various State institutions. It seems the very height of absurdity that I would be engaging in a criminal act merely because I wear a cross necklace (or Star of David, hejab, etc.). That, to me, definitely seems like a removal of personal freedoms. If this is made illegal, the question then arises, "What's next?" Wouldn't the wearing of such items fall under freedom of speech and freedom of expression? Perhaps I am wrong, but I think it is considered a right in the U.S. to wear what you want without the govenment passing inspection on what clothes or jewelry I wear.

quote:

Originally posted by arctic I disagree, the fact is that Christianity is, well, a religion, and if you include it, then it will have religious 'implications' so to speak. The EU should not throw it's weight behind any specific religion, people should be free to practice whichever faith they choose (Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Buhidism, Traditional CHinese, whatever). If any refference to religion is made, it should relate to people's freedom to follow their own faith. The EU should be Secular imho.

you didn't get my point.

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