http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackag...&storyID=423620

I know that democracy takes awhile to be established, but freedom of speech isnt that hard.


edit: this is a good idea

Last edited by rizo on Dec-19-2003 at 22:02

What I would say as far as the protesting is that our definition of demonstration versus the type going on in Iraq is different. When I think of protests, I think of people yelling, screaming and holding signs advocating what they are fighting for. So far, especially in the last few weeks, when Iraqis protest it includes yelling, screaming, and holding signs, along with blowing up each other and shooting things. As long as the trend continues that they are unable to protest in a "civilized" manner, in which there is not a very real fear of them killing themselves or those around them, I feel it is a justified action. There will be a time when emotions and politics settle down enough for protests to occur, but with such a track record of death and violence at these "protests," I can see where this action is coming from.

As far as Iran is concerned, they maybe should look in the mirror before acussing Saddam of such atrocities (although I agree he is not innocent). If I remember correctly, it was Khomeini who vowed revenge on Iraq, the country from which he was expelled. It was Iran who attempted to assassinate Tariq Aziz, starting the real onset of war. It was also Iran who continued the war even when Iraq was pushed back within its own borders.
As far as being pissed with the United States, Iran also needs to analize where it stands. During the war, their entire Air Force was made up of American made planes. It was the Soviet Union, not the US, that was the major supplier of Iraqi military equipment. And correct me if I'm wrong, but what was that whole Iran-contra thingy about again?
Furthermore, it is incredible to me that some think international relations are somehow static. People think that just because we backed a country 20 years ago, we should still be somehow accountable for their current actions. As if just because we are friendly and supportive of a country at some point in history, we must continue to be many years later. If that's the case, why isn't the US still pissed at England or Germany or Vietnam? At some point in history we fought bloody and emotional battles against each. So according to the logic of some, we should still be enemies of them now, just as we should be shamed that we were allies with a country years ago. International relations are not static, but dynamic, and as times change, so do relationships.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono What I would say as far as the protesting is that our definition of demonstration versus the type going on in Iraq is different. When I think of protests, I think of people yelling, screaming and holding signs advocating what they are fighting for. So far, especially in the last few weeks, when Iraqis protest it includes yelling, screaming, and holding signs, along with blowing up each other and shooting things. As long as the trend continues that they are unable to protest in a "civilized" manner, in which there is not a very real fear of them killing themselves or those around them, I feel it is a justified action. There will be a time when emotions and politics settle down enough for protests to occur, but with such a track record of death and violence at these "protests," I can see where this action is coming from.

Tanks have rolled out on to the streets of Tikrit, as a message that the U.S. army will not tolerate shows of support for Saddam Hussein in the captured president's home town.

that sounds like it was peaceful until america got into the picture

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono As far as Iran is concerned, they maybe should look in the mirror before acussing Saddam of such atrocities (although I agree he is not innocent). If I remember correctly, it was Khomeini who vowed revenge on Iraq, the country from which he was expelled. It was Iran who attempted to assassinate Tariq Aziz, starting the real onset of war. It was also Iran who continued the war even when Iraq was pushed back within its own borders. As far as being pissed with the United States, Iran also needs to analize where it stands. During the war, their entire Air Force was made up of American made planes. It was the Soviet Union, not the US, that was the major supplier of Iraqi military equipment. And correct me if I'm wrong, but what was that whole Iran-contra thingy about again?

no doubt its a loop of hypocrisy

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono Furthermore, it is incredible to me that some think international relations are somehow static. People think that just because we backed a country 20 years ago, we should still be somehow accountable for their current actions. As if just because we are friendly and supportive of a country at some point in history, we must continue to be many years later. If that's the case, why isn't the US still pissed at England or Germany or Vietnam? At some point in history we fought bloody and emotional battles against each. So according to the logic of some, we should still be enemies of them now, just as we should be shamed that we were allies with a country years ago. International relations are not static, but dynamic, and as times change, so do relationships.

Well if we are going to forget our actions, lets forget Saddam's actions too right?

quote:

Tanks have rolled out on to the streets of Tikrit, as a message that the U.S. army will not tolerate shows of support for Saddam Hussein in the captured president's home town.

There is a track record of violent protests.

October 4
October 1
October 2
October 31
December 16

I'm sure I could find more.

quote:

Well if we are going to forget our actions, lets forget Saddam's actions too right?

What I'm saying is that at the time, our relations were not seen as bad, and there was no public or world outcry about what we were doing. At the time, Saddam was the "good guy" and we were doing what we felt was right. Times changed, Saddam changed, and our stance with Saddam and Iraq changed. I don't see how we can be held accountable for his actions since that time. However, Saddam should be held accountable for the actions that he orchestrated.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono There is a track record of violent protests. October 4 October 1 October 2 October 31 December 16 I'm sure I could find more.

protest in Baghdad.
protest in Baghdad.
protest in Baghdad.
protest in Baghdad.

Pro-Saddam rallies were also held Monday in Tikrit, Baghdad and Fallujah.

In Saddam's ancestral home town, Tikrit -- nine miles north of the hideout where U.S. soldiers found him in a Saturday night search -- hundreds of demonstrators flooded the streets, chanting, singing and weeping for Saddam, and at times clashing with U.S. troops and Iraqi police officers.

was the last protest peaceful before the US army tanks rolled in? maybe, maybe not, at least no one got killed and wounded before then.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono What I'm saying is that at the time, our relations were not seen as bad, and there was no public or world outcry about what we were doing. At the time, Saddam was the "good guy" and we were doing what we felt was right. Times changed, Saddam changed, and our stance with Saddam and Iraq changed. I don't see how we can be held accountable for his actions since that time. However, Saddam should be held accountable for the actions that he orchestrated.

Saddam was a good guy for killing the Kurdish that sided with Iran? we should be accountable, since we did provide the chemicals to do the gasing, that was the whole point of rumsfeld meeting with saddam in the 80s.

http://hnn.us/articles/862.html

Why had the United States not acted? That was what William Safire and a few other columnists in the media wanted to know. Years later James Baker explained:

Diplomacy--as well as the American psyche--is fundamentally biased toward "improving relations." Shifting a policy away from cooperation toward confrontation is always a more difficult proposition--particularly when support for existing policy is as firmly embedded among various constituencies and bureaucratic interests as was the policy toward Iraq."

Domestic special interests had a stake in the survival of Saddam. Exports to Iraq of American agricultural products were large: 23 percent of U.S. rice exports went to Iraq; a million tons of wheat. When members of Congress threatened to pass a sanctions bill against Iraq, the White House opposed the measure.

that just reminds why I sometimes hate capitalism.

All I have to say is nice that the US Government wants everyone to bow down in another country to us. Jail time for anyone against coalition forces? They aren't in America. Let's just roll out some tanks and helicopters anytime we're pissed off. "I am part of the US coalition, hear me roar"

___________________
aka Tits McGee
aka Chesty LaRue
aka Busty St. Claire

Ah, now we know that they are trying to Americanize Iraq!

___________________

America will never going to understand, not every freaking country wants demnocracy nor wanna be like America.

So why democracy is so good? To have all those stupid laws what they made up in America?

Drinking age limit, in Europe i dont think people care if people drink under of age of 21. I was at the beer festival in Munich and i seen parents take they 8 years old kids there, nobody said anything like ," Oh you cant bring your kid to a beer festival, now im going to tell on you and you going to the jail"

In america if i would take my kid to a beer festival i would go to the jail. There is your freedom.

Secound , no boobies on the tv???? Well in Europe , you turn on the tv , see naked women showering in the body wash commerical. Or turn the german tv on saturday night , you can see naked boobies on the tv.

In America? Oh noooo you cant see naked boobies on tv becouse its not violent.

Cant get into clubs till your 21+

Plus censorship in America?? If you say a bad word about our goverment everybody jump on your ass. Just look at the dixie chicks, they got hated becouse they were against the war.

Couple of months ago i was listening to a BBC radio , and they flamed the British prime minister a big time. Nobody got fired and people didnt say, "oh now becouse you flamed the Prime minister we wont listen to BBC nomore"

Plus if some other country dont wanna fallow America in war , is being called Anti-American, i think they are just an Anti-War people

quote:

Originally posted by anuneventrade All I have to say is nice that the US Government wants everyone to bow down in another country to us. Jail time for anyone against coalition forces? They aren't in America. Let's just roll out some tanks and helicopters anytime we're pissed off. "I am part of the US coalition, hear me roar"

are you guys all serious? Iraq isn't a democracy right now. It's a military dicatorship. There haven't been elections, there aren't any courts, there's no constitution. Not only should the people of Iraq be bowing down to the soldiers that deposed of their tyrant, they should be scrubbing their shoes, waxing their hummers (hehe), and obeying every command.

The curfews and bans on demonstrations are a safety precaution. Soldiers can't see a gunman in the middle of a crowd. It's that simple.

And it's not even a nationwide thing. Not even close. It's happening in the few cities/villages that see multiple attacks each day. When they stop shooting at them, maybe the coalition troops will let them protest. It's not like the city of New York would be allowed to protest if every time there was a protest there a bunch of people got shot or blown up.

quote:

Originally posted by hardstyle America will never going to understand, not every freaking country wants demnocracy nor wanna be like America. So why democracy is so good? To have all those stupid laws what they made up in America? Drinking age limit, in Europe i dont think people care if people drink under of age of 21. I was at the beer festival in Munich and i seen parents take they 8 years old kids there, nobody said anything like ," Oh you cant bring your kid to a beer festival, now im going to tell on you and you going to the jail" In america if i would take my kid to a beer festival i would go to the jail. There is your freedom. Secound , no boobies on the tv???? Well in Europe , you turn on the tv , see naked women showering in the body wash commerical. Or turn the german tv on saturday night , you can see naked boobies on the tv. In America? Oh noooo you cant see naked boobies on tv becouse its not violent. Cant get into clubs till your 21+ Plus censorship in America?? If you say a bad word about our goverment everybody jump on your ass. Just look at the dixie chicks, they got hated becouse they were against the war. Couple of months ago i was listening to a BBC radio , and they flamed the British prime minister a big time. Nobody got fired and people didnt say, "oh now becouse you flamed the Prime minister we wont listen to BBC nomore" Plus if some other country dont wanna fallow America in war , is being called Anti-American, i think they are just an Anti-War people

the drinking age has nothing to do with democracy. if you knew the history of it you wouldn't say what you said.

boobies on tv isn't an issue that's worth discussing. peronally, i dont want to see boobies on tv. My wife's boobies are more than enough.

dicie chicks got bitched out because they are from texas. they also got many cheers in other parts of the country as well as abroad.

you can go to clubs that have seperate drinking areas all you want. also, since there are 50 states, it is very easy to get in with a $20 fake id from another state if you want to go to an exclusively 21+ club.

all the points you made except the very last one are completely moronic as well as completely uneducated (funny how those seem to go together often). you're anti-deocracy? you want communism? psychotic monarchies? tell me what your ideal form of government is since you dont like democracy.

Do you think in America we have true democracy ? Well you are wrong , America is controlled by the goverment.This so called freedom doesnt really exist in America.
If you would go to other countries in Europe , you would see Europiens have more freedom the Americans.
You keep believ what the goverment tells you . Im from Europe and we have more freedom then America

America is still 200-300 years old. I wish people would understand ,America isnt as awsome as how they tells you

America is a Republic. Much of American ideology is shaped by the concept of 'Freedom of Choice'. I'd take republic/demcracy any day over socialism or communism.